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Author Topic: Credit where its due (politics)  (Read 4516 times)

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tigers_gonads

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #15 on: 10 December 2011, 09:55:04 »

Quote ................ We have, in my view, been done up like kippers if we expected to carry on through this present crisis by dictating terms while holding onto the half-assed attitude to ‘Brussels’ that we evidently do – in the light of that, will we have the brains and brawn to survive on the outside?


Imo, not at the moment  :'(

But at the end of the day, we have 2 choices here.

1/.  Grow a pair and tell europe to stick it and learn to believe in ourselfs again and fight our own battles  (not everybody elses for them) ................ or

2/.  Role over, give up effective soverenty of our nation and become the British provence of the United States of Europe  >:( >:(

We have spent 60 years bending over and just taking it from the yanks (imo, due to the amount of money we owed them after WW2) and in the last 20 years ......... Europe  >:(
Got to admit, I fear for my children and there children  :(

Its time to re invent what this nation is all about and start calling ourselfs Great Britain again  :y :y

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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #16 on: 10 December 2011, 10:02:05 »




Hmmm. Not sure we know the full story on this as yet//...

There was no treaty on the table to veto. So what, exactly, did he veto?//...

Methinks he may have been set up as a patsy//...

Sadly, I don't think Dave understands how the EU works.






That's more like it. :y

I think the Prime Minister, assisted by the Dangerous Dems, (accompanied by their running dogs) attended this gathering expecting to carry some weight - especially with Germany.  Sadly they should have known that we were, as a nation, always likely to founder up on the rocks of Europe; the question (for anyone having a modicum of commonsense and strategic awareness) was always one of when and not if.

I would imagine that the Europe, as envisaged by those at the top table, is one of conformity and obedience – to have it any other way (as has been evident up to the moment) always risked the venture failing at the first hurdle.  For an experiment like this to succeed, the disparate nations within the association must be bound by common rules and like policy so that strategic decisions are taken on the basis of one mind.
 
yep.. its obvious..but thats under "normal" conditions which became history now, there are moments that every agrement is left aside and everyone takes (or have to) care of self (because sacrifices solve nothing) , which world economic conditions at the moment is going towards..
 
 
Britain, and her traditional reluctance to wholeheartedly throw her lot into this venture over the years, was always considered to be the thorn in the paw of ‘Brussels’ and, as such, always destined to exist on the outside looking in as there is no room for question or dissent within the ‘club’

So, as far as I can see, all this determination and baring of teats (if we believe the PM and MSM) or bluster (if we look at it from a realistic perspective) may well back fire on those who have accidentally dipped their toes into the uncharted waters that wait outside the safety of the harbour provided by the EU: 
 
I dont agree, its hard to say EU provides safe harbor for UK.. may be awalking  field  of mines ;D 
 
a union of capitalist countries is a big contradiction by the nature of them :D ;D  however, I can say as the world shifted to global capitalism, all the citizens of member countries now become the duck to pluck.. however, its easy to estimate this peaceful sharing  wont last long ::)
 
 
One has to have the strength of will, the capability of command, and the expertise – all assisted by the intention to get down to practical politics within a country (this one for starters) - to survive on one’s own in a world where becoming part of a larger group seems to be the option of choice for many.

Sadly, I don’t think many in our administration possess that strength – I’ll go further and say that the infrastructure as it now exists within our country (local government, social services, system of justice, commercial concerns and so on) has been bled dry from the wounds inflicted by ‘Brussels’ to the point of where any remaining casualties within any such group attempted to formulate policy generated at home or stand up to be counted as those to whom we look towards to actually ‘run’ the country (with all the difficulty and self-sacrifice it requires) would fail, as those essential qualities no longer exist in the form needed to go forward from this impasse.
 
I'm glad to witness other countries citizens also see the reality.. :y
 
I think ‘we’ blundered into this without a plan ‘B’ and now that the trap has been sprung – set up by those in the ‘Union’/Germany
 
yep..it was a trap..but German citizens are also unaware whats happening.. even Merkel, is just a passive player in a game where she didnt own..And if it was possible, she would not hesitate to run out if permitted.. ;D
 
who never had regard for this country – many in our own mongrel administration have voided their bowels at the thought of being cut loose from the safety of the ‘club’ and a political life dictated by oppression, double-dealing, bribery, financial reward and the obfuscation of high political dialogue.

We have, in my view, been done up like kippers if we expected to carry on through this present crisis by dictating terms while holding onto the half-assed attitude to ‘Brussels’ that we evidently do – in the light of that, will we have the brains and brawn to survive on the outside?
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Nickbat

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #17 on: 10 December 2011, 11:29:29 »

“Britain didn’t want a deal. It pretended it wanted one, but it didn’t. If Cameron got some kind of safeguard for the City adopted by the 27 he would then have to sign up to a new treaty. That would then have to go through the British Parliament, which would split the Conservative Party. So Cameron bid for something he knew was impossible, a complete opt-out of financial regulation which nobody was ever going to agree to.

“It’s very useful for Cameron to say, ‘Sarkozy was so unreasonable, what could we do?’ But the result of no deal is that the City of London has no protection and will probably be screwed in the future.”

On some level, both Cameron and Sarkozy have walked away with a result that will please their voters at home. But the price has been immense - a blow has been dealt to their own relationship, and indeed, to the future of the euro itself.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/8947576/EU-Treaty-bashing-the-Brits-is-an-old-habit-in-France-that-still-boosts-a-politicians-popularity.html

There could well be an element of truth in this observation.  ;) :(

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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #18 on: 10 December 2011, 11:39:15 »

“Britain didn’t want a deal. It pretended it wanted one, but it didn’t. If Cameron got some kind of safeguard for the City adopted by the 27 he would then have to sign up to a new treaty. That would then have to go through the British Parliament, which would split the Conservative Party. So Cameron bid for something he knew was impossible, a complete opt-out of financial regulation which nobody was ever going to agree to.

“It’s very useful for Cameron to say, ‘Sarkozy was so unreasonable, what could we do?’ But the result of no deal is that the City of London has no protection and will probably be screwed in the future.”

On some level, both Cameron and Sarkozy have walked away with a result that will please their voters at home. But the price has been immense - a blow has been dealt to their own relationship, and indeed, to the future of the euro itself.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/8947576/EU-Treaty-bashing-the-Brits-is-an-old-habit-in-France-that-still-boosts-a-politicians-popularity.html

There could well be an element of truth in this observation.  ;) :(

those threats actually dont belong to the writer , but to the masters who design the system.. And I'm glad they become so angry ;D :D   
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #19 on: 10 December 2011, 12:14:00 »

"9.We are committed to working towards a common economic policy"  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 
  "12. The European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) leveraging will be rapidly deployed"  can be translated as we are in deep sh*t ;D ;D
 
"to ensure that the IMF has adequate resources to deal with the crisis. "  from where they are also in the swamp.. ???
 


"We are looking forward to parallel contributions from the international community."   Alice in wonderland  ;D   try china, they are trying to save some of their money from USA ;D
« Last Edit: 10 December 2011, 12:20:32 by cem »
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #20 on: 10 December 2011, 12:22:17 »

 ::) ::)  ok.. as can be seen "there is no way out" :-\
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #21 on: 10 December 2011, 12:26:07 »

These treaty negotiations had little to do with saving the Euro (which will probably fail anyway) and everything to do with closer EU integration.  Had Cameron signed up then Britain would have lost yet another slice of soveriegnty and we wouldn't have got a referendum as they would have claimed it was an adjustment to an existing treaty.....  >:(

The only 'protection' The City needs is from the dead hand of over regulation and EU bureaucracy, which in my view Cameron achieved.  Bankers in New York, Singapore and Hong Kong would have been rubbing their hands at the extra business coming their way from London had The UK become part of this proposed fiscal union. 

Cameron has been attacked in Europe for acting solely in the UK national interest, but what the hell were Sarkozy and Merkel doing?? When the Euro breaks up, the new Deuchmark will again become the reserve currency of Europe and will be a very strong currency, making German goods more expensive and hurting Germanys exports.  France's banking industry is extremely shaky and is probably the one needing protection which Sarkozy failed in achieving!!

Well done Dave!!  :y :y :y
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cleggy

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #22 on: 10 December 2011, 12:37:52 »

These treaty negotiations had little to do with saving the Euro (which will probably fail anyway) and everything to do with closer EU integration.  Had Cameron signed up then Britain would have lost yet another slice of soveriegnty and we wouldn't have got a referendum as they would have claimed it was an adjustment to an existing treaty.....  >:(

The only 'protection' The City needs is from the dead hand of over regulation and EU bureaucracy, which in my view Cameron achieved.  Bankers in New York, Singapore and Hong Kong would have been rubbing their hands at the extra business coming their way from London had The UK become part of this proposed fiscal union. 

Cameron has been attacked in Europe for acting solely in the UK national interest, but what the hell were Sarkozy and Merkel doing?? When the Euro breaks up, the new Deuchmark will again become the reserve currency of Europe and will be a very strong currency, making German goods more expensive and hurting Germanys exports.   France's banking industry is extremely shaky and is probably the one needing protection which Sarkozy failed in achieving!!

Well done Dave!!  :y :y :y

Apparently they are already printing them ready for the collapse.

Yes well done, Freak 'Em :y
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #23 on: 10 December 2011, 16:24:51 »

“Britain didn’t want a deal. It pretended it wanted one, but it didn’t. If Cameron got some kind of safeguard for the City adopted by the 27 he would then have to sign up to a new treaty. That would then have to go through the British Parliament, which would split the Conservative Party. So Cameron bid for something he knew was impossible, a complete opt-out of financial regulation which nobody was ever going to agree to.

“It’s very useful for Cameron to say, ‘Sarkozy was so unreasonable, what could we do?’ But the result of no deal is that the City of London has no protection and will probably be screwed in the future.”

On some level, both Cameron and Sarkozy have walked away with a result that will please their voters at home. But the price has been immense - a blow has been dealt to their own relationship, and indeed, to the future of the euro itself.




There could well be an element of truth in this observation.  ;) :(



That would partly credit not only him but the negotiators and civil servants with a modicum of strategic thought - something they don't seem to possess if the state of this country and how things may develop in the near future are anything to go by.

It's all very well playing a close hand if you're expert in the averages and sufficiently skilled to play the long game all the while being prepared to take an inevitable loss.

If William Hague’s assertion is right and the City of London and its institutions contribute 10% to our GNP, then it would have been reckless for the British team to approach this problem in the way suggested by the MSM piece.

In essence; yes, he has deflected the matter away from both himself and his party but, as a result, surely this has left those much valued City Institutions at the mercy of any arrangements made by the members of the ‘new’ club - especially those concerning additional taxation on financial transactions - in an environment where we would then have little or no say in the decisions made.

This is partly why I think this whole thing has been approached in a half-cocked way – the British need (and should have) some fall-back position but, as things now appear to stand, we have been told in no uncertain terms that if you’re not in and toeing the line then you’re out.  Where do we go from here now that it seems to be obvious that we hold precious little sway outside the Westminster village?

This again shows the folly of this peripheral arrangement we have with ‘Brussels’ – it can never work successfully in an environment where an acceptance of decree is expected and, furthermore, a prerequisite for the success of the venture.  In short, you either shit or get off the pot – we should be either wholeheartedly in or fully out but, for oppss sake, our minds should be made up so we can get on with dragging the country out of the mire.

Of course if one were to be particularly devious in thought one might suspect that ‘Dave’ may well be trying to antagonise the Desperate Dems for a party political reason entirely unconnected to the present troubles within the European club.


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Dishevelled Den

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #24 on: 10 December 2011, 16:42:17 »

These treaty negotiations had little to do with saving the Euro (which will probably fail anyway) and everything to do with closer EU integration.  Had Cameron signed up then Britain would have lost yet another slice of soveriegnty and we wouldn't have got a referendum as they would have claimed it was an adjustment to an existing treaty.....  >:(

The only 'protection' The City needs is from the dead hand of over regulation and EU bureaucracy, which in my view Cameron achieved.  Bankers in New York, Singapore and Hong Kong would have been rubbing their hands at the extra business coming their way from London had The UK become part of this proposed fiscal union. 

Cameron has been attacked in Europe for acting solely in the UK national interest, but what the hell were Sarkozy and Merkel doing?? When the Euro breaks up, the new Deuchmark will again become the reserve currency of Europe and will be a very strong currency, making German goods more expensive and hurting Germanys exports.  France's banking industry is extremely shaky and is probably the one needing protection which Sarkozy failed in achieving!!

Well done Dave!!  :y :y :y


Quote
The only 'protection' The City needs is from the dead hand of over regulation and EU bureaucracy, which in my view Cameron achieved.  Bankers in New York, Singapore and Hong Kong would have been rubbing their hands at the extra business coming their way from London had The UK become part of this proposed fiscal union.


To me Tigg that shows the folly of believing that the apparent success of the 'City' would always be a good thing for fortunes this country as a whole.

Financial markets and those who operate in them are capricious by nature and when the shit ultimately hits the fan, as it's wont to do every now and again, many associated in the industry will run for cover - after saving as much for themselves as possible of course.

Over reliance on this financial sector (and also the service sector) is a bad thing in my view.  We were a manufacturing nation at one time - a bloody good one - but where has that gone?  Pissed up against the wall in the name of profit and easy money I would say.


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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #25 on: 10 December 2011, 18:23:20 »

I totally agree with you there Den!  :y  There is far too much reliance on The City and the financial services industry as a whole in this country, and ideally what we need is a more balanced economy in which all sectors thrive. ie manufacturing, agriculture, fisheries, mining, renewable energy, technology etc

However, like it or not financial services is an important part of our economy and as such it needs to remain competitive on the global scene, not just in Europe.  Everybody loves to kick the bankers at the moment, mainly because it's perceived that the current shitstorm is all their fault, that's another argument though. ::)  I have friends who work for the big banks in London and they have all had major works done to their houses in the last couple of years.  Thus their bonuses are trickling down through the economy to the builders, the kitchen fitters, landscape gardeners etc etc  ;)

So what of manufacturing and the manufacturers in this country? As you say, we were once a great manufacturing nation and the well worn phrase is that we were the workshop of the world!! and it's true..... So what happened?  Apart from a lack of support from successive governments and too much power and vested interests in the unions, the manufacturers themselves couldn't wait to break off to the Far East or Eastern Europe where labour and life is cheap and there is little or no regulation! Now that's capricious!!  ::) ::) ::)

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Dishevelled Den

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #26 on: 10 December 2011, 21:59:14 »

Yes I quite agree with much of that Tigg, however the thing that concerns me about the financial aspect of the argument is that this is this proclivity within certain elements of the establishment to have such faith in a system so powerful and convoluted that has all but bankrupted the country.

The many reasons for this have been the continued subject for much debate and the blame, if one can speak in such simple terms, can be laid far beyond the doors of those financial institutions to each and every door in most homes and businesses within shores of this country.

Irrespective of what has gone before, the incompetence of government , excess in trades union behaviour, greedy employers and idle workers, this present financial crises holds the very real possibility of bringing down governments, turning a system of governance upside down, setting people one against the other and be the fuel to fan international or domestic conflict.

The propensity for excess in many of those resident within the financial sector in this country (and others of course) doesn't inspire me to believe that will they act in the country’s best interest at all times and certainly less so if things take a negative turn away from their desired course. 

Capriciousness in this regard, within such a powerful body, holds a much more dangerous inclination to leave the country on its arse on the back of self preservation.
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Nickbat

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #27 on: 10 December 2011, 22:17:51 »

I totally agree with you there Den!  :y  There is far too much reliance on The City and the financial services industry as a whole in this country, and ideally what we need is a more balanced economy in which all sectors thrive. ie manufacturing, agriculture, fisheries, mining, renewable energy, technology etc

However, like it or not financial services is an important part of our economy and as such it needs to remain competitive on the global scene, not just in Europe.  Everybody loves to kick the bankers at the moment, mainly because it's perceived that the current shitstorm is all their fault, that's another argument though. ::)  I have friends who work for the big banks in London and they have all had major works done to their houses in the last couple of years.  Thus their bonuses are trickling down through the economy to the builders, the kitchen fitters, landscape gardeners etc etc  ;)

So what of manufacturing and the manufacturers in this country? As you say, we were once a great manufacturing nation and the well worn phrase is that we were the workshop of the world!! and it's true..... So what happened?  Apart from a lack of support from successive governments and too much power and vested interests in the unions, the manufacturers themselves couldn't wait to break off to the Far East or Eastern Europe where labour and life is cheap and there is little or no regulation! Now that's capricious!!  ::) ::) ::)

May I concur with that statement. I recently met a chap who is self-employed and does a lot of work specialising in high-end landscaping. He relies upon a wealthy client base and is perplexed when people talk about smashing the bankers and so on. We live in a very complex society in which the various income levels interact in a largely mutually-beneficial way. Of course, there are always those too lazy, or ignorant, to consider that the impact of suddenly crushing the high flyers would have on ordinary grafters at lower income levels.

Manufacturing in this country was always going to go South as new markets abroad began to offer cheaper labour and cheaper raw materials. The only way this could have been stopped would have been to follow a policy of protectionism. Maybe that's not always a BAD thing from an economic standpoint, but mere mention of it normally goes down like a sack of spuds politically. As it is, UK manufacturing has concentrated on high-tech and high-value items, something which we are really rather good at.  ;)     
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #28 on: 10 December 2011, 22:18:00 »

Oops
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Dishevelled Den

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Re: Credit where its due (politics)
« Reply #29 on: 10 December 2011, 22:52:22 »



 Thus their bonuses are trickling down through the economy to the builders, the kitchen fitters, landscape gardeners etc etc  ;)



May I concur with that statement. I recently met a chap who is self-employed and does a lot of work specialising in high-end landscaping. He relies upon a wealthy client base and is perplexed when people talk about smashing the bankers and so on. We live in a very complex society in which the various income levels interact in a largely mutually-beneficial way. Of course, there are always those too lazy, or ignorant, to consider that the impact of suddenly crushing the high flyers would have on ordinary grafters at lower income levels.

Manufacturing in this country was always going to go South as new markets abroad began to offer cheaper labour and cheaper raw materials. The only way this could have been stopped would have been to follow a policy of protectionism. Maybe that's not always a BAD thing from an economic standpoint, but mere mention of it normally goes down like a sack of spuds politically. As it is, UK manufacturing has concentrated on high-tech and high-value items, something which we are really rather good at.  ;)   

Yes it's nice for those in the service industries and suchlike to feed from the tree of plenty, but does the fruit fall very far from that tree?

If we are to support more than these few people in this country we certainly need to have a much more diverse industry base so that people far from these centres of financial excellence can be employed in other industrial disciplines.

I don’t think the financial sector has been all that many people would wish to be as the acquisition of profit before anything else seems to be the over riding cause for being - as has been the inclination for business to gravitate towards places where their cost base can be reduced in the continued desire to improve the bottom line.
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