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[albitz]

A an aside,I watched the BBC coverage of this issue on their news channel last night.Imo it was nothing short of disgraceful.It took for granted the fact that Cameron had just made a huge error and had left the UK alone,isolated and in deep peril. It was treated with the kind of solemnity usually reserved for the sudden death of a Monarch or similar.
I dont think I have ever seen a more shamelessly biased broadcast in my life.

[Nickbat]

 Thus their bonuses are trickling down through the economy to the builders, the kitchen fitters, landscape gardeners etc etc 

May I concur with that statement. I recently met a chap who is self-employed and does a lot of work specialising in high-end landscaping. He relies upon a wealthy client base and is perplexed when people talk about smashing the bankers and so on. We live in a very complex society in which the various income levels interact in a largely mutually-beneficial way. Of course, there are always those too lazy, or ignorant, to consider that the impact of suddenly crushing the high flyers would have on ordinary grafters at lower income levels.

Manufacturing in this country was always going to go South as new markets abroad began to offer cheaper labour and cheaper raw materials. The only way this could have been stopped would have been to follow a policy of protectionism. Maybe that's not always a BAD thing from an economic standpoint, but mere mention of it normally goes down like a sack of spuds politically. As it is, UK manufacturing has concentrated on high-tech and high-value items, something which we are really rather good at.     

Yes it's nice for those in the service industries and suchlike to feed from the tree of plenty, but does the fruit fall very far from that tree?

If we are to support more than these few people in this country we certainly need to have a much more diverse industry base so that people far from these centres of financial excellence can be employed in other industrial disciplines.

I don’t think the financial sector has been all that many people would wish to be as the acquisition of profit before anything else seems to be the over riding cause for being - as has been the inclination for business to gravitate towards places where their cost base can be reduced in the continued desire to improve the bottom line.

Come on, Den. The financial sector provides 10% of GNP. Yes, that is significant, but it also means that 90% comes from elsewhere!!! 

[Nickbat]

A an aside,I watched the BBC coverage of this issue on their news channel last night.Imo it was nothing short of disgraceful.It took for granted the fact that Cameron had just made a huge error and had left the UK alone,isolated and in deep peril. It was treated with the kind of solemnity usually reserved for the sudden death of a Monarch or similar.
I dont think I have ever seen a more shamelessly biased broadcast in my life.

You are not alone, Albs. The blogosphere is alive with BBC bias on this issue. Sadly, nothing will be done about it, though, as it is full of leftie luvvies, receives income from the EU, and will always be supported by the "I-think-some-of-their-programmes-are-really-good" brigade. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

High earners in any industry tend to enjoy their wealth, so yes I'd say that the fruit from the tree of plenty does fall far and wide.  Take footballers for example who like to have ostentatious displays of their treasure.... They'll drive flash cars, admittedly from Germany or Italy, providing jobs nonetheless in sales and servicing, they'll buy a palace from another footballer, and gut and refit it because the Mrs dosn't like the colour of the marble and yes the new marble will be Italian of course, but the guys fitting it will be from Cheshire or Surrey......

Lucky they're not all like me, because if I was a high earner I'd stay in my little terraced house counting my money!! Bah!! 

[albitz]

I was had the impression (misapprehension possibly?) that the financial sector provided much more than 10% of our GDP - at least 20%.
It may have been that it contributes over 20% of the revenue recieved by the treasury,which will be a different figure to the GDP figure.
Whatever the figure,we currently need it to help climb out of the pit - even though it can be argued that it was that sector which helped get us in there.
Longer term it would be nice to see the economy diversifying more and the manufacturing base growing so that we are less dependent on the financial sector. We are where we are though,and it would be pointless to divert a lot of money from the square mile to mainland Europe,so they could throw it down the same black hole thay have thrown so much money into already.

[Dishevelled Den]

 Thus their bonuses are trickling down through the economy to the builders, the kitchen fitters, landscape gardeners etc etc 

May I concur with that statement. I recently met a chap who is self-employed and does a lot of work specialising in high-end landscaping. He relies upon a wealthy client base and is perplexed when people talk about smashing the bankers and so on. We live in a very complex society in which the various income levels interact in a largely mutually-beneficial way. Of course, there are always those too lazy, or ignorant, to consider that the impact of suddenly crushing the high flyers would have on ordinary grafters at lower income levels.

Manufacturing in this country was always going to go South as new markets abroad began to offer cheaper labour and cheaper raw materials. The only way this could have been stopped would have been to follow a policy of protectionism. Maybe that's not always a BAD thing from an economic standpoint, but mere mention of it normally goes down like a sack of spuds politically. As it is, UK manufacturing has concentrated on high-tech and high-value items, something which we are really rather good at.     

Yes it's nice for those in the service industries and suchlike to feed from the tree of plenty, but does the fruit fall very far from that tree?

If we are to support more than these few people in this country we certainly need to have a much more diverse industry base so that people far from these centres of financial excellence can be employed in other industrial disciplines.

I don’t think the financial sector has been all that many people would wish to be as the acquisition of profit before anything else seems to be the over riding cause for being - as has been the inclination for business to gravitate towards places where their cost base can be reduced in the continued desire to improve the bottom line.

Come on, Den. The financial sector provides 10% of GNP. Yes, that is significant, but it also means that 90% comes from elsewhere!!! 

In that case Nick should we be at all concerned about knocking a few heads together in the financial sector?

Of course if we had a broader based economy relying less on the volatile nature of the financial and service sectors and more on making things to sell  by way of manufacturing tangible products, maybe we could work our way out of this in better order.

[Nickbat]

 Thus their bonuses are trickling down through the economy to the builders, the kitchen fitters, landscape gardeners etc etc 

May I concur with that statement. I recently met a chap who is self-employed and does a lot of work specialising in high-end landscaping. He relies upon a wealthy client base and is perplexed when people talk about smashing the bankers and so on. We live in a very complex society in which the various income levels interact in a largely mutually-beneficial way. Of course, there are always those too lazy, or ignorant, to consider that the impact of suddenly crushing the high flyers would have on ordinary grafters at lower income levels.

Manufacturing in this country was always going to go South as new markets abroad began to offer cheaper labour and cheaper raw materials. The only way this could have been stopped would have been to follow a policy of protectionism. Maybe that's not always a BAD thing from an economic standpoint, but mere mention of it normally goes down like a sack of spuds politically. As it is, UK manufacturing has concentrated on high-tech and high-value items, something which we are really rather good at.     

Yes it's nice for those in the service industries and suchlike to feed from the tree of plenty, but does the fruit fall very far from that tree?

If we are to support more than these few people in this country we certainly need to have a much more diverse industry base so that people far from these centres of financial excellence can be employed in other industrial disciplines.

I don’t think the financial sector has been all that many people would wish to be as the acquisition of profit before anything else seems to be the over riding cause for being - as has been the inclination for business to gravitate towards places where their cost base can be reduced in the continued desire to improve the bottom line.

Come on, Den. The financial sector provides 10% of GNP. Yes, that is significant, but it also means that 90% comes from elsewhere!!! 

In that case Nick should we be at all concerned about knocking a few heads together in the financial sector?

Of course if we had a broader based economy relying less on the volatile nature of the financial and service sectors and more on making things to sell  by way of manufacturing tangible products, maybe we could work our way out of this in better order.

That's a non-sequitur, Den. The fact that it "only" represents 10% of GNP, does not absolve it from regulation and behavioural improvement. 

[Dishevelled Den]

High earners in any industry tend to enjoy their wealth, so yes I'd say that the fruit from the tree of plenty does fall far and wide.  Take footballers for example who like to have ostentatious displays of their treasure.... They'll drive flash cars, admittedly from Germany or Italy, providing jobs nonetheless in sales and servicing, they'll buy a palace from another footballer, and gut and refit it because the Mrs dosn't like the colour of the marble and yes the new marble will be Italian of course, but the guys fitting it will be from Cheshire or Surrey......

Lucky they're not all like me, because if I was a high earner I'd stay in my little terraced house counting my money!! Bah!! 

Yes it's nice for those trades to have such work Tigg - but in relation to the country as a whole, any distribution of wealth from such a narrow source can never hope to add anything of a substantial nature to the equation - I suppose that's why a not inconsiderable swathe of the country seldom gets a sniff of such work from those people who have substantial disposable income.

I would think we need to have people in regular dependable employment as there are only so many marble clad dwellings or high-end vehicles around to provide a constancy of employment to those who install them or service them.  There's nothing wrong with exploiting such a market but what I would like to see is a broader based economy in place to take up the lion’s share of employment opportunity.

[Dishevelled Den]

 Thus their bonuses are trickling down through the economy to the builders, the kitchen fitters, landscape gardeners etc etc 

May I concur with that statement. I recently met a chap who is self-employed and does a lot of work specialising in high-end landscaping. He relies upon a wealthy client base and is perplexed when people talk about smashing the bankers and so on. We live in a very complex society in which the various income levels interact in a largely mutually-beneficial way. Of course, there are always those too lazy, or ignorant, to consider that the impact of suddenly crushing the high flyers would have on ordinary grafters at lower income levels.

Manufacturing in this country was always going to go South as new markets abroad began to offer cheaper labour and cheaper raw materials. The only way this could have been stopped would have been to follow a policy of protectionism. Maybe that's not always a BAD thing from an economic standpoint, but mere mention of it normally goes down like a sack of spuds politically. As it is, UK manufacturing has concentrated on high-tech and high-value items, something which we are really rather good at.     

Yes it's nice for those in the service industries and suchlike to feed from the tree of plenty, but does the fruit fall very far from that tree?

If we are to support more than these few people in this country we certainly need to have a much more diverse industry base so that people far from these centres of financial excellence can be employed in other industrial disciplines.

I don’t think the financial sector has been all that many people would wish to be as the acquisition of profit before anything else seems to be the over riding cause for being - as has been the inclination for business to gravitate towards places where their cost base can be reduced in the continued desire to improve the bottom line.

Come on, Den. The financial sector provides 10% of GNP. Yes, that is significant, but it also means that 90% comes from elsewhere!!! 

In that case Nick should we be at all concerned about knocking a few heads together in the financial sector?

Of course if we had a broader based economy relying less on the volatile nature of the financial and service sectors and more on making things to sell  by way of manufacturing tangible products, maybe we could work our way out of this in better order.

That's a non-sequitur, Den. The fact that it "only" represents 10% of GNP, does not absolve it from regulation and behavioural improvement. 

I think it's obvious that any regulation in that sector has been poorly applied or completely ignored by those instituatuions and I suppose only time will tell id there has been a change of heart where the behavioral profile of those employed in it.

I won't be holding by breath for such a change of heart as logic seldom applies where there's money to be made.

[Varche]

 Thus their bonuses are trickling down through the economy to the builders, the kitchen fitters, landscape gardeners etc etc 

May I concur with that statement. I recently met a chap who is self-employed and does a lot of work specialising in high-end landscaping. He relies upon a wealthy client base and is perplexed when people talk about smashing the bankers and so on. We live in a very complex society in which the various income levels interact in a largely mutually-beneficial way. Of course, there are always those too lazy, or ignorant, to consider that the impact of suddenly crushing the high flyers would have on ordinary grafters at lower income levels.

Manufacturing in this country was always going to go South as new markets abroad began to offer cheaper labour and cheaper raw materials. The only way this could have been stopped would have been to follow a policy of protectionism. Maybe that's not always a BAD thing from an economic standpoint, but mere mention of it normally goes down like a sack of spuds politically. As it is, UK manufacturing has concentrated on high-tech and high-value items, something which we are really rather good at.     

Yes it's nice for those in the service industries and suchlike to feed from the tree of plenty, but does the fruit fall very far from that tree?

If we are to support more than these few people in this country we certainly need to have a much more diverse industry base so that people far from these centres of financial excellence can be employed in other industrial disciplines.

I don’t think the financial sector has been all that many people would wish to be as the acquisition of profit before anything else seems to be the over riding cause for being - as has been the inclination for business to gravitate towards places where their cost base can be reduced in the continued desire to improve the bottom line.

Come on, Den. The financial sector provides 10% of GNP. Yes, that is significant, but it also means that 90% comes from elsewhere!!! 

In that case Nick should we be at all concerned about knocking a few heads together in the financial sector?

Of course if we had a broader based economy relying less on the volatile nature of the financial and service sectors and more on making things to sell  by way of manufacturing tangible products, maybe we could work our way out of this in better order.

That's a non-sequitur, Den. The fact that it "only" represents 10% of GNP, does not absolve it from regulation and behavioural improvement. 

I think it's obvious that any regulation in that sector has been poorly applied or completely ignored by those instituatuions and I suppose only time will tell id there has been a change of heart where the behavioral profile of those employed in it.

I won't be holding by breath for such a change of heart as logic seldom applies where there's money to be made.

Agreed. No one sacked, nothing much changed. In other words the banks have the government in their pocket. Did anyone get sacked for the recent miselling of "ridiculous savings plans " for the vulnerable elderly? Err no just a large fine. Have the former directors of RBS been banned from holding other directorships err no just empty talk. Regardless of how much useful GDP they generate these are still the same people who steered us into this mess.

Now a solution. Properly back SME's, Youth employment schemes, get exporting. Britain has some brilliant ideas and excellent small niche companies. Lets help them flourish. Still bags of savings to be had by bringing the MOD to account for their expenditure

[Sir Tigger KC]

High earners in any industry tend to enjoy their wealth, so yes I'd say that the fruit from the tree of plenty does fall far and wide.  Take footballers for example who like to have ostentatious displays of their treasure.... They'll drive flash cars, admittedly from Germany or Italy, providing jobs nonetheless in sales and servicing, they'll buy a palace from another footballer, and gut and refit it because the Mrs dosn't like the colour of the marble and yes the new marble will be Italian of course, but the guys fitting it will be from Cheshire or Surrey......

Lucky they're not all like me, because if I was a high earner I'd stay in my little terraced house counting my money!! Bah!! 

Yes it's nice for those trades to have such work Tigg - but in relation to the country as a whole, any distribution of wealth from such a narrow source can never hope to add anything of a substantial nature to the equation - I suppose that's why a not inconsiderable swathe of the country seldom gets a sniff of such work from those people who have substantial disposable income.

I would think we need to have people in regular dependable employment as there are only so many marble clad dwellings or high-end vehicles around to provide a constancy of employment to those who install them or service them.  There's nothing wrong with exploiting such a market but what I would like to see is a broader based economy in place to take up the lion’s share of employment opportunity.

I don't think that anyone is disagreeing with you here Den about Britains financial industry and the over reliance on it.  However we find ourselves in a juxtaposition whereby the very industry through deregulation, has brought the economy to it's knees, but we still need that very industry to be successful to help drag ourselves out of the mire.   

As I've pointed out, The City needs to be competitive on the global scene not just in Europe, and in my view Merkozy were aiming to blunt that competitiveness, to the advange of Frankfurt and Paris's Banks..... 

[Nickbat]

High earners in any industry tend to enjoy their wealth, so yes I'd say that the fruit from the tree of plenty does fall far and wide.  Take footballers for example who like to have ostentatious displays of their treasure.... They'll drive flash cars, admittedly from Germany or Italy, providing jobs nonetheless in sales and servicing, they'll buy a palace from another footballer, and gut and refit it because the Mrs dosn't like the colour of the marble and yes the new marble will be Italian of course, but the guys fitting it will be from Cheshire or Surrey......

Lucky they're not all like me, because if I was a high earner I'd stay in my little terraced house counting my money!! Bah!! 

Yes it's nice for those trades to have such work Tigg - but in relation to the country as a whole, any distribution of wealth from such a narrow source can never hope to add anything of a substantial nature to the equation - I suppose that's why a not inconsiderable swathe of the country seldom gets a sniff of such work from those people who have substantial disposable income.

I would think we need to have people in regular dependable employment as there are only so many marble clad dwellings or high-end vehicles around to provide a constancy of employment to those who install them or service them.  There's nothing wrong with exploiting such a market but what I would like to see is a broader based economy in place to take up the lion’s share of employment opportunity.

I don't think that anyone is disagreeing with you here Den about Britains financial industry and the over reliance on it.  However we find ourselves in a juxtaposition whereby the very industry through deregulation, has brought the economy to it's knees, but we still need that very industry to be successful to help drag ourselves out of the mire.   

As I've pointed out, The City needs to be competitive on the global scene not just in Europe, and in my view Merkozy were aiming to blunt that competitiveness, to the advange of Frankfurt and Paris's Banks..... 

One must remember that the blame for the economy being on its knees (and this applies even more so to other countries in the EZ) cannot just be placed on banking practices, but rather on governments spending too much. We currently have a sovereign debt crisis, not a mortgage crisis.     

[Sir Tigger KC]

Indeed NB, but it all started off with the American banks and their subprime mortgages and unraveled from there!   

[albitz]

The banking crisis started that way yes.This however is simply a matter of govts. of countries having spent eye watering amounts of money their countries hadnt earned getting caught out.The banking crisis and its after effects may have helped expose it,but it would have happened sooner or later.
They no doubt assumed that being memebers of the EU would mean that the other members of the club would send them a cheque in the post when the shit hit the fan.They were correct to an extent,but they didnt realise it would mean handing over complete control of their countries to foreign powers as a form of interest on the handout.

[Sir Tigger KC]

One of the reasons that Governmants are in the kakky, is because one of their sources of finance has dried up ie the banks.  Indeed, governments have over extended themselves and the private finacial institutions are demanding unsustainable interest rates to refinance government debts.  It's all interconnected and as said, it started with the American banks subprime mortgages 

And you're right in that the Eurozone countries assumed that everything would be alright and the Germans or the ECB would write blank cheques.... Oooops!!