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General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 16 June 2016, 14:38:51 »
That sounds dangerously reasoned and thought through, using verifiable facts and as such has no part of the brexit debate.
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2
General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 16 June 2016, 07:40:19 »
I was wondering when hitler would get brought up.
Bit late in the day, but leave never dissapoints.
Btw in france, spain germany they have strong unions and employment legislation unlike here so wages being undercut by migrants is perhaps wishful thinking on leaves part.
But why let reality get in your way?
Bit late in the day, but leave never dissapoints.
Btw in france, spain germany they have strong unions and employment legislation unlike here so wages being undercut by migrants is perhaps wishful thinking on leaves part.
But why let reality get in your way?
3
General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 15 June 2016, 12:53:55 »
Illustrates the muddle of leave. They really want less immigration. Eu is just in the way of that, hence the lack of interest in economic arguments. Its single issue politics.
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General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 13 June 2016, 16:32:41 »
Back to nissan... Surely one of the reasons they went to sunderland was eu financial help for deprived areas? Same as airbus wings being built in wales?
Sone of these arguments seem to be highly selective with the facts.
Sone of these arguments seem to be highly selective with the facts.
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General Discussion Area / Re: (Spanish) Lawyer?
« on: 13 June 2016, 15:33:38 »
Speak to the spanish consulate in london. They have lists of lawyers in the uk.
They are basically a drop in centre for the spanish government and handle these queries.
They are basically a drop in centre for the spanish government and handle these queries.
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General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 13 June 2016, 15:06:08 »Do people not think the fact that none of this is clear exposes the central flaw of brexit - that it simply hasn't been thought out.
Its like a shopping list of wishful thinking.
That is exactly what has persuaded me to settle on a reluctant and guarded Remain vote. All the Leave campaigners have published is a vague suggestion that it will be OK, with no idea of how that will be the case. Their continual implication that our immigration and economic problems will instantly improve is especially insulting.
This country faces some very tough times ahead, this referendum could have been an opportunity to address globalisation, social equality etc etc
Instead i have nigel farage talking about foreign rapists coming to our shores.
Its been depressing and dismaying.
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General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 13 June 2016, 14:24:20 »
Problem is marriage involves two people. But sometimes people stick together for the kids.
In this case itis millions of people and generations to come.
Bit of an oversimplification i think to compare it to marriage.
I respect every ones opinions obviously there is a lot of strong feelings around europe.
I just wish they had thought all of this through before presenting it to the electorate.
In this case itis millions of people and generations to come.
Bit of an oversimplification i think to compare it to marriage.
I respect every ones opinions obviously there is a lot of strong feelings around europe.
I just wish they had thought all of this through before presenting it to the electorate.
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General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 13 June 2016, 14:04:05 »
Do people not think the fact that none of this is clear exposes the central flaw of brexit - that it simply hasnt been thought out.
Its like a shopping list of wishful thinking.
Its like a shopping list of wishful thinking.
10
General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 13 June 2016, 13:38:37 »I think both sides overlook a fundamental issue with trade. All this talk of barriers going up, no trade, trade deals taking years . (all Threats and Fear statements by the way) overlooks a fundamental issue. Vested interests run trade and commerce. No way will they want things to stop working. The ships would stop running, mines would stop mining, smelters would stop smelting, docks would have nothing to load/unload, logistics would have nothing to deliver. etc etc. Europe and possibly the world would go into recession. Vested interests wouldn't have that. How do countries with no trade deal manage to trade?
No I can confidently predict cars will still be made and still astonishlingly be sold. Salad crops will still be grown and sold as will beef and French wine. Too much at stake to not do so.
No one is suggesting that. What could happen is that a tariff is imposed. The foreign investor in the plant decides that the uk is a volatile place to do business with. He thought that he had one set of tariffs to deal with. Now he has 27 to deal with. And thats ignoring the rest of the world. Suddenly his business plan is not looking so good, and maybe france or spain may be a better bet. They dont have all this hassle with tearing up trade agreements.
And thats just the start...
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General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 13 June 2016, 13:22:42 »I think there is something fundamentally wrong with assuming that we just pick up from the eu deal.
It aasumes that the foreign state or organisation is completely passive and just says 'yes sir' when boris or nigel knock on their door after brexit asking for a trade deal.
It ignores the possibility that they are independent entities who can turn around and say 'well our last agreement was with the eu, not with you. We are starting the negotiation at a different position'.
Brexiters treat this possibility with 'well we are british so we can ignore this'.
I find this argument very difficult to swallow.
The world owes us nothing as far as trade goes.
You're completely right that the world owes us nothing.
But you are also completely ignoring the fact that we are a large consumer market and it will be as much in those independent countries interests to engage with us as it is ours to engage with them.
But you are yet again making a huge assumption - that they will offer the same deal as they did before with the eu. What if they dont? You are simply ignoring this possibility, having convinced yourself that it cant possibly happen.
As they say on every financial product, 'past performance is no guarantee of future performance'.
As i said earler, you are assuming that the foreign state is completely passive. And ignoring that it is a new deal conducted by a new party at a different time.
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General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 13 June 2016, 13:03:20 »Especially, after the amount of money that the Chinese are ploughing into these isles.
Its always going to be in China's interest to sort thing out quickly as well as our own
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7379/CBP-7379.pdf
China is 3.6% of UK exports. USA is 15% ish. EU is 43.7%.
Which is the more important?
Its just as important to China as it is to the USA or the EU.
You just sit down with them individually and start with whatever terms are current.
If both sides are happy and pleased with want they are getting then bobs your aunty and you scribble it down and get on with life
Things only get difficult when one or the other side wants it too which as said is in nobody's best interest
I think there is something fundamentally wrong with assuming that we just pick up from the eu deal.
It aasumes that the foreign state or organisation is completely passive and just says 'yes sir' when boris or nigel knock on their door after brexit asking for a trade deal.
It ignores the possibility that they are independent entities who can turn around and say 'well our last agreement was with the eu, not with you. We are starting the negotiation at a different position'.
Brexiters treat this possibility with 'well we are british so we can ignore this'.
I find this argument very difficult to swallow.
The world owes us nothing as far as trade goes.
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General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 13 June 2016, 12:48:43 »
Do you really believe what you just said?
Two guys sit down and scribble something down on a serviette?
I think trade deals are a littttlllle bit more involved than what you are describing.
Two guys sit down and scribble something down on a serviette?
I think trade deals are a littttlllle bit more involved than what you are describing.
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General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 13 June 2016, 11:45:45 »I suppose the million dollar question is why should other countries accept our terms? On what basis?
I suspect an independent UK's terms would be a lot less onerous and demanding than the EU's.
All Britain will want to achieve from a trade deal is the ability to trade freely with that country, with minimal paperwork and low or zero tariffs.
I can't see Britain demanding contributions to our budget, the right of our people to live and work in that country and maybe even the regulatory burden would be less onerous.
In theory it should be quick and simple. Just 2 countries thrashing out a deal, which the US and Australia managed in 2 years.
How long have they been negotiating TTIP?
You do reaise with that statement about the uk not demanding the right to live in the others country will affect 1.2 million britons? The number who live abroad in the eu?
What does the leave campaign propose for these people? Should they be repatriated? Or just leave them hung out to dry?
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General Discussion Area / Re: The "Leave" campaign
« on: 12 June 2016, 21:05:22 »
I suppose the million dollar question is why should other countries accept our terms? On what basis?