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[crazyjoetavola]

ok, for the four guys on here who openly admit to voting for the BNP -  can I ask why?

What was it about their politics that attracts you, what policies do they have that makes you feel that they are the right party to run the country?

What area's of society will benefit by having them in power, and who will (in your eyes, justifiably) suffer as a result?

I second that question from Sev - it genuinely baffles me that otherwise rational, intelligent humans, proud of this countries history of tolerance, who have lost empires fighting fascists, can bring themselves to vote for an openly fascist, racist party?

So where the egg throwers tolerant ? we have allready reached the stage in this country where to have a view that differs from what the authorities want you to have, then you are ridiculed for it.
This is not the democratic free UK that I believe in.

you don't believe in a free UK if you vote BNP, you believe in free for some - thats not what the UK is about

vote for who you like - just don't expect people not to react when faced with extreme views - demonstrating  in a free society is a basic right - its amusing to see the BNP crying about rights - what rights do they give to "non-indigenous people" (whatever that means) what rights to they propose for those of a different colour?

please spare me the debate about rights for fascists

The police stood by and did nothing. THAT IS VERY WRONG.

Rightly or wrongly, the BNP secured seats through democratic election. As soon as the police become an instrument of the party in power, you have the beginnings of fascism. 

...only now must it obvious to most people that the civil police are indeed that very instrument. It can't be any other way.  Implementation of laws duly formulated by democratic process will always oblige the police, as a body, to be an instrument of the state, real or perceived.

The disgusting and disturbing thing over the recent past is that this perception has become reality.

New Labour through its Big Brother (not TV) policy of needing to control the movements of, and requiring to have knowledge about, as much of the population as possible has made this notion more of a reality.  Remember Ian Blair's blatant sop to the government by allowing election literature favouring New Labour to be appended to police vehicles?  If that's not an indication of this unhealthy link I don't know what is.

The police will always tread the fine line of performing their duty in an independent and impartial way, but thanks to the trendy and unwelcome meddling of New Labour, that line has become blurred.

We will see in the coming months how the reality of this proposition, concerning the unwelcome link, will become apparent thanks to the efforts of this tawdry administration.   

[Lizzie_Zoom]

ok.. I'm neither a UK citizen or an immigrant..

but I also want to tell my opinion..

looking from the point of view; personal rights,  its wrong that police dont do nothing about..

but,....

in times of problems, some political reactions go after the easy egg..

and its very easy to provocate masses with some promises of better life and showing the one "guilty" ..which is already done here (my country) with another tool "religion"..

And a sample 

"Nick Griffin, newly-minted MEP, was on Radio Five this morning claiming that the science of genetics legitimised his party's racist policies. Two thirds of people in Britain with British parents, he claims, can trace their "genetic ancestry" back to ice-age settlers in the geographical area of the UK"


I hope nobody "takes offense", Hitler was also elected within democracy..

Just imagine a scenario what will happen when they take 70-80% of the votes.. 

And I cant blame the people who show reaction.. :-/

Well done Cem for quoting that!!  This is exactly what millions fear from these right wing nationalist parties.  The BNP have just twoMEP's, but to stop their evil potential lets just remember how the 'aryan race' policy of the Nazi's developed on the idea of genetics; lets remember how Dr Mengele pursued this "dream" by looking at an extract of his and Nazi history:

Auschwitz  -

"The facility at Auschwitz was a gruesome kingdom of human misery, inundated with lice, vermin and fleas, the foulest sanitary conditions known to man, and rife with diseases such as typhus. Funded by a grant secured by Professor von Verschuer, it was here that Mengele was ordered to unlock the secrets of genetic engineering and devise methods to eradicate inferior genes from the human population to create Hitler's 'perfect race.' This 'scientific' premise for Mengele's work would ultimately contribute nothing of value to the understanding of human genetics, but it would add volumes to the annals of human suffering."

 
 

[cem_devecioglu]

I think democratic rights are for the true believers of democracy , not for the group who want to use it as a tool for their aims..

Look in the name "United Kingdom"..

if I go deep in history, you cant eliminate many people from different lands which take an important role ..

Similiar to my country..

Of course this doesnt mean whoever wants come here and take my money and land..

But the principles must not be changed on a genetical basis which was written many centuries ago very differently..

[crazyjoetavola]

...and furthermore, we are now governed by a cabinet heavily influenced by the non-elected and non-accountable.
..and they have the cheek to try and change the voting system because they fear they may lose if we stick with the existing first-past-the post system.

..and Gordon Brown has been accused of suppressing a report of an investigation into whether the minister Shahid Malik broke the rules over parliamentary expenses, despite a promise to bring in a new era of "transparency" in politics.

This administration is far more dangerous than a couple of toytown nazis.   

...and that, Nick, is the most alarming thing about this move - by following this path, the country will be controlled by unelected officials and faceless groups, who have done nothing but provided succour to the depleted teats of this barren administration.

[crazyjoetavola]

ok, for the four guys on here who openly admit to voting for the BNP -  can I ask why?

What was it about their politics that attracts you, what policies do they have that makes you feel that they are the right party to run the country?

What area's of society will benefit by having them in power, and who will (in your eyes, justifiably) suffer as a result?

I second that question from Sev - it genuinely baffles me that otherwise rational, intelligent humans, proud of this countries history of tolerance, who have lost empires fighting fascists, can bring themselves to vote for an openly fascist, racist party?

So where the egg throwers tolerant ? we have allready reached the stage in this country where to have a view that differs from what the authorities want you to have, then you are ridiculed for it.
This is not the democratic free UK that I believe in.

you don't believe in a free UK if you vote BNP, you believe in free for some - thats not what the UK is about

vote for who you like - just don't expect people not to react when faced with extreme views - demonstrating  in a free society is a basic right - its amusing to see the BNP crying about rights - what rights do they give to "non-indigenous people" (whatever that means) what rights to they propose for those of a different colour?

please spare me the debate about rights for fascists

The police stood by and did nothing. THAT IS VERY WRONG.

Rightly or wrongly, the BNP secured seats through democratic election. As soon as the police become an instrument of the party in power, you have the beginnings of fascism. 

On the face of it Nick I will agree with you utterly, although as for the police doing nothing they did the same when Lord Mandelson was attacked with custard.  So perhaps there is no biased here; the met police / police generally are just inept at protecting politicians from such attack due possibly fear of being accused of the very political biased you accuse them of. 

Just an observation Nick of course, but just consider down here in the South East a story hit the TV screens yesterday.  It was about how a young woman was seriously hurt when being puched in the face randomly by a man, who was subsequently given just a caution.  Why?  Because the CPS (yet again ) told the police  that it was "not in the public interest" to pursue a full prosecution!!

People then wonder why the police are reluctant to over reach themselves in certain crimes, like BNP leaders being pelted in eggs, with all the subsequent paperwork and man hours being used, only for the CPS to typically say "not in the public interest" to prosecute.  Believe me this is very frustrating to the average copper!

 .......the responsibility for this, Ms Zoom, lies fairly and squarely with the senior management structure within the police. 

There is an unwarranted desire in this group to follow government dictat to the extreme.

The slavish adherence to the quota system of detection has sullied the integrity and objectivity of the police - just when it's of the utmost importance to show the public that they can, and should have confidence, to believe that their complaint will be dealt with in a speedy and professional manner.

[crazyjoetavola]

.....am breaking for a drink!

[Lizzie_Zoom]

ok, for the four guys on here who openly admit to voting for the BNP -  can I ask why?

What was it about their politics that attracts you, what policies do they have that makes you feel that they are the right party to run the country?

What area's of society will benefit by having them in power, and who will (in your eyes, justifiably) suffer as a result?

I second that question from Sev - it genuinely baffles me that otherwise rational, intelligent humans, proud of this countries history of tolerance, who have lost empires fighting fascists, can bring themselves to vote for an openly fascist, racist party?

So where the egg throwers tolerant ? we have allready reached the stage in this country where to have a view that differs from what the authorities want you to have, then you are ridiculed for it.
This is not the democratic free UK that I believe in.

you don't believe in a free UK if you vote BNP, you believe in free for some - thats not what the UK is about

vote for who you like - just don't expect people not to react when faced with extreme views - demonstrating  in a free society is a basic right - its amusing to see the BNP crying about rights - what rights do they give to "non-indigenous people" (whatever that means) what rights to they propose for those of a different colour?

please spare me the debate about rights for fascists

The police stood by and did nothing. THAT IS VERY WRONG.

Rightly or wrongly, the BNP secured seats through democratic election. As soon as the police become an instrument of the party in power, you have the beginnings of fascism. 

On the face of it Nick I will agree with you utterly, although as for the police doing nothing they did the same when Lord Mandelson was attacked with custard.  So perhaps there is no biased here; the met police / police generally are just inept at protecting politicians from such attack due possibly fear of being accused of the very political biased you accuse them of. 

Just an observation Nick of course, but just consider down here in the South East a story hit the TV screens yesterday.  It was about how a young woman was seriously hurt when being puched in the face randomly by a man, who was subsequently given just a caution.  Why?  Because the CPS (yet again ) told the police  that it was "not in the public interest" to pursue a full prosecution!!

People then wonder why the police are reluctant to over reach themselves in certain crimes, like BNP leaders being pelted in eggs, with all the subsequent paperwork and man hours being used, only for the CPS to typically say "not in the public interest" to prosecute.  Believe me this is very frustrating to the average copper!

 .......the responsibility for this, Ms Zoom, lies fairly and squarely with the senior management structure within the police. 

There is an unwarranted desire in this group to follow government dictat to the extreme.

The slavish adherence to the quota system of detection has sullied the integrity and objectivity of the police - just when it's of the utmost importance to show the public that they can, and should have confidence, to believe that their complaint will be dealt with in a speedy and professional manner.

It is true that the Chief Constables of  police forces are under the direction of the Home Office, with a percentage of funding originating from this source, but with the majority coming from the local Police Authority.

The Home Office / |Secretary cannot dictate to their Chief Constables who should be arrested and prosecuted, as that is left to them under the direction of statutory law. The average PC on the beat just gets on and deals with crime as it transpires, and operates completely under the requirements of the law.  Yes, they are affected by the budgets applied at high levels, in so far as the number of officers on duty at any given time, but the law is independant of day to day politics and is allowed to function within its legal brief.

The Crown Prosecution Service is also operating independantly, and certainly does assess the possibility of prosecution based on the evidence provided by the police officers, the durability of such a prosecution, whether the case is legally sound, and, yes, of course, is it in the public interest, or rather is it cost effective with the possible outcome justifying the investment made in terms of resources used throughout.

In short, you do have political influence at high levels of the police service i.e. ACPO in certain aspects of their duties, but from assistant chief constable down this diffuses until at PC level politics does not come in to their direct operational life.  The latter do what they have to do to enforce the law.  The CPS are something else, but are distant from direct political control.

 

[Banjax]

I think democratic rights are for the true believers of democracy , not for the group who want to use it as a tool for their aims..

Look in the name "United Kingdom"..

if I go deep in history, you cant eliminate many people from different lands which take an important role ..

Similiar to my country..

Of course this doesnt mean whoever wants come here and take my money and land..

But the principles must not be changed on a genetical basis which was written many centuries ago very differently..

Cem - a gentleman and a scholar 

you've said what i wanted to more eloquently then i would - i'm afraid i may impose self-censorship on any future BNP debates - as i will never agree with anyone who votes for them, no matter what justification they use

i've said all i want to about nazis

[crazyjoetavola]

It is true that the Chief Constables of  police forces are under the direction of the Home Office, with a percentage of funding originating from this source, but with the majority coming from the local Police Authority.

The Home Office / |Secretary cannot dictate to their Chief Constables who should be arrested and prosecuted, as that is left to them under the direction of statutory law. The average PC on the beat just gets on and deals with crime as it transpires, and operates completely under the requirements of the law.  Yes, they are affected by the budgets applied at high levels, in so far as the number of officers on duty at any given time, but the law is independant of day to day politics and is allowed to function within its legal brief.

The Crown Prosecution Service is also operating independantly, and certainly does assess the possibility of prosecution based on the evidence provided by the police officers, the durability of such a prosecution, whether the case is legally sound, and, yes, of course, is it in the public interest, or rather is it cost effective with the possible outcome justifying the investment made in terms of resources used throughout.

In short, you do have political influence at high levels of the police service i.e. ACPO in certain aspects of their duties, but from assistant chief constable down this diffuses until at PC level politics does not come in to their direct operational life.  The latter do what they have to do to enforce the law.  The CPS are something else, but are distant from direct political control.

 

.....and there it is Ms Zoom that dreaded 'B' word.  Chief Constables are left in no doubt that their budget allocation rests in not only how they deploy their resources, but how effective they are seen to be in using it to discharge their obligation to provide a policing service.

The blunt tool used by the legislature to ensure that this happens is that of the quota - what better way to illustrate to those interested, that government policy was being successful.

Having been of the beast Ms Zoom, let me assure you that the concerns of chief officers, regarding this very problem, are indeed passed down and ultimately have certain influence in how the police conduct their business on the ground.

With the cost of legal action now as it is, the CPS is also required to adhere to this system of quotas, and that will always have some bearing on their day to day view of just what case should prosecuted.

The chief officers of either concern cannot afford those at the coal face behaving precisely as they wish as ultimately, the workers are not the ones to be answerable to the political elite, the chief officers are and that fact, is the one dictating the independence or otherwise of our system of justice.   

[Vmax]

I thought free speech was allowed in the UK, even if you are a racist P****. No one pelts the Muslim extremists with eggs when they are stood on the streets spouting racist bile??

[crazyjoetavola]

ok, for the four guys on here who openly admit to voting for the BNP -  can I ask why?

What was it about their politics that attracts you, what policies do they have that makes you feel that they are the right party to run the country?

What area's of society will benefit by having them in power, and who will (in your eyes, justifiably) suffer as a result?

I second that question from Sev - it genuinely baffles me that otherwise rational, intelligent humans, proud of this countries history of tolerance, who have lost empires fighting fascists, can bring themselves to vote for an openly fascist, racist party?

So where the egg throwers tolerant ? we have allready reached the stage in this country where to have a view that differs from what the authorities want you to have, then you are ridiculed for it.
This is not the democratic free UK that I believe in.

you don't believe in a free UK if you vote BNP, you believe in free for some - thats not what the UK is about

vote for who you like - just don't expect people not to react when faced with extreme views - demonstrating  in a free society is a basic right - its amusing to see the BNP crying about rights - what rights do they give to "non-indigenous people" (whatever that means) what rights to they propose for those of a different colour?

please spare me the debate about rights for fascists

The police stood by and did nothing. THAT IS VERY WRONG.

Rightly or wrongly, the BNP secured seats through democratic election. As soon as the police become an instrument of the party in power, you have the beginnings of fascism. 

On the face of it Nick I will agree with you utterly, although as for the police doing nothing they did the same when Lord Mandelson was attacked with custard.  So perhaps there is no biased here; the met police / police generally are just inept at protecting politicians from such attack due possibly fear of being accused of the very political biased you accuse them of. 

Just an observation Nick of course, but just consider down here in the South East a story hit the TV screens yesterday.  It was about how a young woman was seriously hurt when being puched in the face randomly by a man, who was subsequently given just a caution.  Why?  Because the CPS (yet again ) told the police  that it was "not in the public interest" to pursue a full prosecution!!

People then wonder why the police are reluctant to over reach themselves in certain crimes, like BNP leaders being pelted in eggs, with all the subsequent paperwork and man hours being used, only for the CPS to typically say "not in the public interest" to prosecute.  Believe me this is very frustrating to the average copper!

When Mandelson was attacked with custard, he was not being interviewed. The anti-fascists took it upon themselves to try to shut down free speech. That is nazism itself.

I'm tired of saying that they have a lawful right to say what they want. We should, indeed must, debate them and, through that discourse, demonstrate that their policies are wrong.

Was it not Voltaire who said "I disagree entirely with what you say , but I shall fight to the death to protect your right to say it"? I am genuinely more scared of this government than 2 pathetic BNP MEPs. 

 .....and you correct in being so Nick, but the political landscape has changed.

People are not inclined to debate now - they should, but they aren’t - they want action, and that action, however violent, seems to be the only way in which individuals are capable of expressing their views.

That's why I've said the system is broken - precisely because people have lost the desire and capability to engage in reasoned debate.

The blame for this can be laid quite reasonably at the door of New Labour.

[crazyjoetavola]

ok.. I'm neither a UK citizen or an immigrant..

but I also want to tell my opinion..

looking from the point of view; personal rights,  its wrong that police dont do nothing about..

but,....

in times of problems, some political reactions go after the easy egg..
and its very easy to provocate masses with some promises of better life and showing the one "guilty" ..which is already done here (my country) with another tool "religion"..

And a sample 

"Nick Griffin, newly-minted MEP, was on Radio Five this morning claiming that the science of genetics legitimised his party's racist policies. Two thirds of people in Britain with British parents, he claims, can trace their "genetic ancestry" back to ice-age settlers in the geographical area of the UK"


I hope nobody "takes offense", Hitler was also elected within democracy..

Just imagine a scenario what will happen when they take 70-80% of the votes.. 

And I cant blame the people who show reaction.. :-/

....once again cem's considered view spots the potential for future problems - well said

[Lizzie_Zoom]

It is true that the Chief Constables of  police forces are under the direction of the Home Office, with a percentage of funding originating from this source, but with the majority coming from the local Police Authority.

The Home Office / |Secretary cannot dictate to their Chief Constables who should be arrested and prosecuted, as that is left to them under the direction of statutory law. The average PC on the beat just gets on and deals with crime as it transpires, and operates completely under the requirements of the law.  Yes, they are affected by the budgets applied at high levels, in so far as the number of officers on duty at any given time, but the law is independant of day to day politics and is allowed to function within its legal brief.

The Crown Prosecution Service is also operating independantly, and certainly does assess the possibility of prosecution based on the evidence provided by the police officers, the durability of such a prosecution, whether the case is legally sound, and, yes, of course, is it in the public interest, or rather is it cost effective with the possible outcome justifying the investment made in terms of resources used throughout.

In short, you do have political influence at high levels of the police service i.e. ACPO in certain aspects of their duties, but from assistant chief constable down this diffuses until at PC level politics does not come in to their direct operational life.  The latter do what they have to do to enforce the law.  The CPS are something else, but are distant from direct political control.

 

.....and there it is Ms Zoom that dreaded 'B' word.  Chief Constables are left in no doubt that their budget allocation rests in not only how they deploy their resources, but how effective they are seen to be in using it to discharge their obligation to provide a policing service.

The blunt tool used by the legislature to ensure that this happens is that of the quota - what better way to illustrate to those interested, that government policy was being successful.

Having been of the beast Ms Zoom, let me assure you that the concerns of chief officers, regarding this very problem, are indeed passed down and ultimately have certain influence in how the police conduct their business on the ground.

With the cost of legal action now as it is, the CPS is also required to adhere to this system of quotas, and that will always have some bearing on their day to day view of just what case should prosecuted.

The chief officers of either concern cannot afford those at the coal face behaving precisely as they wish as ultimately, the workers are not the ones to be answerable to the political elite, the chief officers are and that fact, is the one dictating the independence or otherwise of our system of justice.   

I know where you are coming from on this one Zulu, and I know in Kent the Chief Constable, as indeed elsewhere no doubt, is very conscious of the requirement to satisfy his political masters and justify how he spends his budget.  The ACC's I have spoken to however reitterate that, at least in Kent, the politics of their situation is kept at CC level, with them tasked in key operational matters.  At the front line the PC's I have been on patrol with have never engaged in specific actions to satisfy 'targets', nor have any Sgt. briefings ever emphasied this aspect.  The troops at the sharp end patrol and engage as crimes dictate, apart from investigating alleged incidents.  As I stated before however, the number of officers on the beat is dictated by budget targets which does certainly affect their efficiency, a point the ACC's admit to.  In addition of course there are incidents like the Kent Kingsnorth power station affair, when it was politically prudent for the CC to direct his forces resources very heavily in the business of controlling mass protests, which actually encouraged significant anti-police feeling in the media!

In my opinion the police can never win, but just try and satisfy the requirements of justice, the people, and, yes, the political masters who will criticise no matter what the police do!

[Del Boy]

ok, for the four guys on here who openly admit to voting for the BNP -  can I ask why?

What was it about their politics that attracts you, what policies do they have that makes you feel that they are the right party to run the country?

What area's of society will benefit by having them in power, and who will (in your eyes, justifiably) suffer as a result?

I have many reasons why I voted for the BNP but my main one is I am sick of this countries open border policy and I haven't heard anything from the major parties about it to make me want to vote for them.
Oh and before anyone suggests I am racist, my son in law is black and I have a lovely 9 month old grandson who is mixed race.

Exactly Pete! And Vmax mate you are spot on, White people in this country have less rights if everyone were to be totally honest. If you call someone a paki(abbreviation for a pakistani which is racist apparently but if we're called Brits and say thats racist thats fine!) you get done for racism, now my son was called white trash by someone from an ethnic group, now when he punched the boy he was in the wrong apparently and was put in a cell for ABH I mean he gave the boy a bloody nose! The boy from the ethnic group got away scott free for this, and would you say calling someone white trash would provoke them? The BNP lets face it are more for the thourogh bread British people but this makes them racist how does that work they are standing up for what they believe in, which is this country should be with people of British origin etc!
I can't say what I want to on a public forum to be honest, and before you say it no i'm not racist at all I have a few friends which are black etc was actually round one of there houses the other week for a BBQ.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

ok, for the four guys on here who openly admit to voting for the BNP -  can I ask why?

What was it about their politics that attracts you, what policies do they have that makes you feel that they are the right party to run the country?

What area's of society will benefit by having them in power, and who will (in your eyes, justifiably) suffer as a result?

I have many reasons why I voted for the BNP but my main one is I am sick of this countries open border policy and I haven't heard anything from the major parties about it to make me want to vote for them.
Oh and before anyone suggests I am racist, my son in law is black and I have a lovely 9 month old grandson who is mixed race.

Exactly Pete! And Vmax mate you are spot on, White people in this country have less rights if everyone were to be totally honest. If you call someone a paki(abbreviation for a pakistani which is racist apparently but if we're called Brits and say thats racist thats fine!) you get done for racism, now my son was called white trash by someone from an ethnic group, now when he punched the boy he was in the wrong apparently and was put in a cell for ABH I mean he gave the boy a bloody nose! The boy from the ethnic group got away scott free for this, and would you say calling someone white trash would provoke them? The BNP lets face it are more for the thourogh bread British people but this makes them racist how does that work they are standing up for what they believe in, which is this country should be with people of British origin etc!
I can't say what I want to on a public forum to be honest, and before you say it no i'm not racist at all I have a few friends which are black etc was actually round one of there houses the other week for a BBQ.

Sorry LSG, no matter what arguments for or against the BNP you make, that sentence of yours does not mean much.  Hitler had many great Jewish friends when he was studying art in Vienna.........................