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Author Topic: all this talk about a second general strike  (Read 3616 times)

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STMO123

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #15 on: 18 June 2011, 17:02:55 »

Quote
Im not jealous of anyone Steve. Just have a strong sense of whats right and wrong. The public sector can only continue as it is if we either - borrow lots more money,and continue to do so forevermore - which would put us in the same position greece is in now pretty quickly.
Or - I pay even more tax (including my pension fund taxation) so that people who earn far more than me (and most other people) can carry on regardless, even though economic circumstances have changed dramatically. To me, thats wrong.
The public sector used to retire early and have better pensions than the private sector, but earned considerably less than the private sector. Public sector earnings are now higher than the private sector. Something has to give. The private sector is shrinking, the public sector is growing like an out of control monster. It has to stop. ;)


Tell that to binmen, dinner ladies and classroom assistants. Each of them holds down a responsible position and gets paid the minimum wage. Their only compensation is a meagre public pension on top of there meagre state pension.



If you listen to the hype, as most people do, you would think that public servants earn a fortune and get a massive pension....totally unaffordable.
No one listens to the people on the box who tell you that the average public sector pay packet is about £16000 and, when the stock market picks up, the pension fund will be in credit.
It is pure ideology and to portray it as anything else is a lie.



Listen to this for pure, unadulterated shite:

On the telly this morning 'One in nine women now alive will live to be a hundred years old'


So?...... Two in nine will probably not live see the pension they paid into all their life. But that doesn't fit, so....keep it dark. ::)
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albitz

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #16 on: 18 June 2011, 17:11:55 »

The average wage in the public sector is now higher than the average wage in the private sector - unless everything I have heard and read in the last few years is completely wrong.
Binmen dont earn minimum wage - they earn around £27,000 around these parts. ;)
I will always maintain that the public sector is grossly overstaffed and employs far more people than it needs to.
It has increased by approx. 750,000 in the last 15 years. How did the country manage to survive before that ?  ;)
Even when the markets were having the biggest boom in history, Brown had to introduce a 20% tax on the investment profits of private sector pensions in order to stop the public sector pension funds going bankrupt.Thus destroying what had been the finest private sector pensions in the world.They aint worth jack shit now.
« Last Edit: 18 June 2011, 17:15:24 by albitz »
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albitz

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #17 on: 18 June 2011, 17:22:35 »

Bottom line is - if you promise people a certain amount of money in the future, regardless of how the markets perform in the interim period, then you only have one way of fulfilling your promise if the investments dont produce enough revenue - take it out of other peoples wages or savings - thats wrong.
Private pensions are dependant on how well (or otherwise) the markets produce a return on the money invested. So should public sector pensions.
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Varche

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #18 on: 18 June 2011, 17:31:27 »

Oh dear, where to start.

Politics of envy. When everything was running along fine and WE all got paid well and felt good, NO ONE was moaning about the benefits package that the folk in the public sector received.
As I have said before people go to work for their package. It might be monthly bonuses, no pension, company Mondeo and a TGIF outing on the company each week. Others go for a fixed annual salary and a generous pension scheme. Perhaps they are showing foresight and foregoing their fast cars and partying for the promise of a decent retirement. IF that cannot be provided by the employer - in this case the government then they should have fessed up years ago under the Thatcher, Blair governments. 

Having champagne and a few nights at a posh hotel? I have worked with top private compnies that do that too. How? They just milk more out of the paying customer. It happens in all industries. Think how much higher your rates would be if the local authorites were paying dividends to their shareholders. Yes there is waste but that applies in all businesses.

People living longer. Yes they are currently. However future governments will reap a rich reward from taxpayers that fail generally to live as long as people are currently managing. Why? No exercise, diet of McDonalds , longer working life (66, 70, 75 who knows) 

On Breakfast TV this a.m. Danny Alexander was on saying the goverments position is quite clear on this "You are all going to have to work longer, earn less and have smaller pensions, paid for by more contributions" They asked a viewer question. Will MPs pensions be attacked in the same way. Will their increases be CPI or RPI.?  His answer? MPs pensions aren't decided by us but by an independent blah blah blah. In other words It doesn't apply to us elitists only you DRONES.

Finally. The criminals that caused all of this have still not been brought to justice. I fear they never will.

BANKERS who gambled away our inheritance
POLITICIANS (in every civilised country) who mortgaged our futures by spending more than we could ever possibly repay.

What were they thinking. How do they sleep at night  ;D ;D
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albitz

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #19 on: 18 June 2011, 17:38:38 »

My beliefs have absolutely nothing to with envy. Im not the envious type. Never have been never will be.
When I speak of the public sector and its pensions I include MP,s in in that.
I repeat - you cannot promise someone X amount of money at some point in the future when you dont have a crystal ball to predict investment returns. Therefore you have to assume you will take the money from other people to make up the shortfall - thats wrong. NOTHING to do with envy.
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Varche

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #20 on: 18 June 2011, 17:47:34 »

Quote
My beliefs have absolutely nothing to with envy. Im not the envious type. Never have been never will be.
When I speak of the public sector and its pensions I include MP,s in in that.
I repeat - you cannot promise someone X amount of money at some point in the future when you dont have a crystal ball to predict investment returns. Therefore you have to assume you will take the money from other people to make up the shortfall - thats wrong. NOTHING to do with envy.

You are making the assumption that the money to pay these final salary pensions comes from stock markets. That may be the case in some instances. As an aside the Greeks get their pensions from government Bonds and not the stock market.

Albs - assuming that it is right and ethical to change peoples contracts and thus their pension value, at what age would you implement this?

Change everyones now, regardless of age?

Only people under 40 years of age?

All new employees?

Protect the fianl salary value "earned" already and put everyone onto money purchase for the rest of their time? 
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albitz

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #21 on: 18 June 2011, 17:54:38 »

Everyone, now. :y
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Varche

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #22 on: 18 June 2011, 17:57:01 »

Strike it is then  ;D ;D ;D
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STMO123

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #23 on: 18 June 2011, 18:01:48 »

Quote
Strike it is then  ;D ;D ;D

Oh,yes ;D There's nowt on the telly since the football finished. This should take us through to the new season perfectly. :y

After the summer of discontent we can look forward to the autumn of unhappines and the winter of angriness. ;D
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albitz

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #24 on: 18 June 2011, 18:07:15 »

Imo, it should be illegal for public servants to strike. ;)
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STMO123

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #25 on: 18 June 2011, 18:20:10 »

Quote
Imo, it should be illegal for public servants to strike. ;)

And imo all Irish people should break off home, thus solving the over-population of England and raising the IQ in one fell swoop. ;D
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STMO123

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #26 on: 18 June 2011, 18:29:09 »

With regards to Public v Private pay, this is the best arguement I could find:


Ben Goldacre
The Guardian, Saturday 9 January 2010
Article history




'Public sector pay races ahead in a recession" shouted the front page of this week's Sunday Times. "Public sector workers earn 7% more on average than their peers in the private sector – a pay gulf that has more than doubled since the recession began." The Telegraph followed up with a copycat story a few hours later.

In reality, this is one of those interesting areas where anybody who makes a firm statement is wrong, because there is not sufficient evidence to make a confident assertion in either direction.

The Sunday Times has identified a difference in the median pay of all public sector employees in the country, when compared with all the private sector employees in the country, and over-extrapolated from there to claim that – job for job – public sector employees are paid more than their peers in the private sector. We will discuss whether that figure is worse than useless in a moment.

But first, some interesting details. For its analysis, the Sunday Times uses "annual salary" instead of "hourly pay", although the latter is clearly more meaningful, especially as the Sunday Times quote the annual salary figures for part-time and full-time employees, all mixed together. But 31% of public sector jobs are part-time, against 23% of private sector jobs.

In fact, quoting "hourly salary" would have made the difference between the public and private sector median wages look even bigger. So why did the Sunday Times and the Telegraph use annual pay? Perhaps because this figure makes the difference in medians look like a new phenomenon under the present government. Using the hourly figures, you can see that public sector median pay has been higher than private sector median pay for years.

If you go to the "annual survey of hours and earnings" data on the ONS website which the Sunday Times used, you can see for yourself. It was £7.98 v £6.72 in 1997 under the previous government, a difference of almost 20%, and £8.56 v £7.32 in 1999. Meanwhile the "annual salary" difference which the Times chose to use was negligible in 1999 (the first year ONS gave this figure), at £15,002 v £14,963, a difference of 0.3%, allowing them to create this illusion of a brand new phenomenon.

More than that, using the "annual salary" figure allows the Sunday Times to claim dramatically that the difference has doubled in two years: the difference in medians for annual pay has gone from 3.8% to 6.8% since 2007, while the difference in hourly pay has gone from 25.1% to 28.7%, which is much less eye-catching. The Sunday Times continues: "Last year the average public sector worker laboured for 35 hours a week … two hours less than the typical private sector worker." Is this really down to laziness, and better working conditions? No. Again, this is simply due to the greater number of part time jobs in the public sector – 31% v 23% – which is a long-standing phenomenon.


But there is a deeper problem with the analysis in the Sunday Times and the Telegraph. The long-standing difference in median wage for all jobs in each sector is hardly informative on the question of whether someone is paid more or less than their peer in the other sector. It's hard to decide what the comparison job is for a policeman, a firefighter, a teacher, and so on, and to make that comparison between medians meaningful you'd need data showing the breakdown of what kinds of jobs are done in each sector. Because it's possible, after all, that the state employs more people in more senior or middling roles, and fewer people in the kinds of jobs you find at the absolute bottom of the employment ladder.

For an illustration, we can poke around the ONS ASHE data again. The national median hourly wage is £11.03. If you take table 14_5a of the 2009 data, re-order it by wage, and look at the bottom three categories with over 1 million people in them, as a rough illustration, we have: 1,126,000 sales and retail assistants on a median hourly wage of £6.36; 1,355,000 cashiers at £6.40; 1,430,000 in sales at £6.45.

None of these are jobs you find in the public sector, although there are also cleaners at the low wage end of this table. If someone here was quoting data comparing public-private wages for the same kind of cleaning jobs, say, then that would be interesting. There's no such data on offer. The Sunday Times says: "Our reports today show, the public sector has become so big and such a generous employer that it is sucking workers out of private companies."

I don't see how they can justify this, other than with their laughable case studies, and if it's true, it should be an long-standing trend, not a new one.

I could go on. It's not surprising if public sector pay increased from what it used to be, under this government: improving recruitment for teachers and the like was a manifesto promise. But as for a comparison, I don't know if the public sector pays more than the private sector for the same work, or less: nobody does, from a difference in median wages. This was one of the most statistically misleading front page stories I have seen in a long time.
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albitz

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #27 on: 18 June 2011, 18:38:43 »

So - one big long string of typical crap from the grauniad actually tells us that public sector pay has been higher than private sector pay for longer than we thought. :y ;D ;D ;D
What were you saying about IQ Steve ? ::) :P ;D
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albitz

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #28 on: 18 June 2011, 19:31:26 »

Quote
Quote
Im not jealous of anyone Steve. Just have a strong sense of whats right and wrong. The public sector can only continue as it is if we either - borrow lots more money,and continue to do so forevermore - which would put us in the same position greece is in now pretty quickly.
Or - I pay even more tax (including my pension fund taxation) so that people who earn far more than me (and most other people) can carry on regardless, even though economic circumstances have changed dramatically. To me, thats wrong.
The public sector used to retire early and have better pensions than the private sector, but earned considerably less than the private sector. Public sector earnings are now higher than the private sector. Something has to give. The private sector is shrinking, the public sector is growing like an out of control monster. It has to stop. ;)


Tell that to binmen, dinner ladies and classroom assistants. Each of them holds down a responsible position and gets paid the minimum wage. Their only compensation is a meagre public pension on top of there meagre state pension.



If you listen to the hype, as most people do, you would think that public servants earn a fortune and get a massive pension....totally unaffordable.
No one listens to the people on the box who tell you that the average public sector pay packet is about £16000 and, when the stock market picks up, the pension fund will be in credit.
It is pure ideology and to portray it as anything else is a lie.



Listen to this for pure, unadulterated shite:

On the telly this morning 'One in nine women now alive will live to be a hundred years old'


So?...... Two in nine will probably not live see the pension they paid into all their life. But that doesn't fit, so....keep it dark. ::)
£25,600 in 2009 according to the pensions policy institute. ;) ::)
£28,808 in 2010 according to www.statistics.gov.uk

Max Hastings explains the problems quite well. :y
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1159511/MAX-HASTINGS-How-Jobzilla-ate-future-Public-sector-pay-perks--paid-YOU--cripple-country-years-come.html
« Last Edit: 18 June 2011, 19:39:16 by albitz »
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Banjax

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Re: all this talk about a second general strike
« Reply #29 on: 18 June 2011, 22:45:29 »

bad science goldacre vs hitler hastings ;D ;D ;D

Albs....come on - now you're just not even trying  :o ;)
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