Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: 05omegav6 on 08 March 2014, 05:16:35
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Doesn't look good...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26492748
Apparently it crashed over Vietnam :-\
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They still haven't found it yet, its gone missing for over 13 hours now. :-\
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Still missing, but they have found a 20km Oil Slick in the sea.
Theres not that much oil in a Plane is there? :-\
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Still missing, but they have found a 20km Oil Slick in the sea.
Theres not that much oil in a Plane is there? :-\
There was at least another 4 hours of fuel left in the tanks when it went missing. Strong currents in that area too.
Doesn't look good :(
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No Mayday call, 777 well proven aircraft too. :( :-\
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Still missing, but they have found a 20km Oil Slick in the sea.
Theres not that much oil in a Plane is there? :-\
10 tonnes of kerosene goes a looong way :-\
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Still missing, but they have found a 20km Oil Slick in the sea.
Theres not that much oil in a Plane is there? :-\
10 tonnes of kerosene goes a looong way :-\
Found 2 slicks now, rumours are it broke up or come down in bits :(
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Firstly my thoughts go out to those involved, not knowing is hellish, the sooner they find the aircraft the better. :'(
Depending on the radar, if it broke up, ie simply fell apart then the radar image would show several returns which would be displayed for a while. It takes time to drop 35,000 feet, but does need a radar operator to see it at the time.
If it fell out of the sky, and broke up on the way down, then the first sign of a problem would be a sudden altitude change, followed by more returns as bits break off, again would need to be noticed by the radar operator.
The only way an commercial aircraft can disappear is if it vapourises or the transponder is turned off. Both would make it just stop showing on the radar screen, blink and miss it if you will...
The fact that no one noticed anything other than the radar signature vanishing is a worry. The discovery of one or more slicks suggest no fire, as kerosene is pretty volatile given the right conditions.
I suspect when the dust settles and the black boxes are recovered, they will show the transponder being turned off and the plane being put into a steep dive... 35,000 feet is plenty of time to issue a radio call if the flight deck choose to. It's interesting though that not one passenger was aware of an issue and rang or sent a text or something, although it was a night flight :-\
The other alternative is that the flight crew switched the transponder off and flew to somewhere else,and that everyone is safe and well, albeit hostages. People are usually quite quick to announce such things though...
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No Mayday call, 777 well proven aircraft too. :( :-\
True but is has had it's fair share of problems in the past. Plus the engines are held on by 2 bolts each although everything points to a massive and rapid hull failure which means one of two things......
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Two people were travelling on stolen passports, which suggest it may have been a terrorist attack. :( :( :(
Explosion, rapid decompression and structural integrity failure along with catastrophic damage to the aircraft systems are a plausible explanation for why there was no mayday. :( :( :(
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Firstly my thoughts go out to those involved, not knowing is hellish, the sooner they find the aircraft the better. :'(
Depending on the radar, if it broke up, ie simply fell apart then the radar image would show several returns which would be displayed for a while. It takes time to drop 35,000 feet, but does need a radar operator to see it at the time.
If it fell out of the sky, and broke up on the way down, then the first sign of a problem would be a sudden altitude change, followed by more returns as bits break off, again would need to be noticed by the radar operator.
The only way an commercial aircraft can disappear is if it vapourises or the transponder is turned off. Both would make it just stop showing on the radar screen, blink and miss it if you will...
The fact that no one noticed anything other than the radar signature vanishing is a worry. The discovery of one or more slicks suggest no fire, as kerosene is pretty volatile given the right conditions.
I suspect when the dust settles and the black boxes are recovered, they will show the transponder being turned off and the plane being put into a steep dive... 35,000 feet is plenty of time to issue a radio call if the flight deck choose to. It's interesting though that not one passenger was aware of an issue and rang or sent a text or something, although it was a night flight :-\
The other alternative is that the flight crew switched the transponder off and flew to somewhere else,and that everyone is safe and well, albeit hostages. People are usually quite quick to announce such things though...
Good post Al .. if it was in Europe ... I'll bet that there is no Secondary Radar (IFF/SSR) in that part of the world, so transponder probably not in use, or squawking generic code for Traffic Avoidance. The radar coverage would probably be an area (primary) radar (searchwater type) that relies on an operator to watch all the time. It has been proven, many times, that an operator will not notice a "missing" radar return for some while.. usually when for some reason they actually refers to it.. as they are trained to look for converging returns. There is also no height readout from primary radar, height clearances are all done proceduraly.
From another site ..
En-route radar generally extends about 200 miles from the base station. There are significant gaps in radar coverage in this region, especially over water far from land, although one FlyerTalker notes the area where the plane became unreachable appears to be within 200 miles of radar base station KBR; another reports there may not be an Area Control Center radar in that area. There is conflicting discussion in the thread about whether the aircraft was out of radar range. Some sources indicate it was, while others indicate it was in radar range and suddenly lost contact (disappeared from the radar). Some have questioned that if it disappeared from radar suddenly, why did it take so long to engage search and rescue operations?
The aircraft was equipped with ADS-B. FlightRadar24.com has ADS-B coverage in that region. Barring failure of the ADS-B transponder, the FlightRadar24.com track of the aircraft may be the most accurate track we have access to. Link to FlightRadar24's track. It has not been reported whether the Malaysian or Vietnamese ATC organizations have the capability to receive ADS-B broadcasts. There may be some discrepancies in the last reported positions of radar contact and the ADS-B flight track.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiLQ_9PCEAAS39o.png)
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Reading that, if the ADS-B transponder was switched off then the aircraft could be anywhere within its fuel range as it might not have been within radar range to have been noticed :-\
It would only have been reported missing after a predetermined time over the STA... this is to allow for external influences, although unusual for there to be no communication from the flight deck :-\
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Strange that it is now believed the aircraft turned back on itself before disappearing from the radar screens............what is that all about, along with the a absence of any Mayday or other radio transmission.
With the two stolen passports, it is looking like one distinct possibility......terrorism of some type.
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Quite worrying about the number of stolen passports that are used to board flights. Mrs V had hers stolen recently.
Also today they said that five people booked in but didn't turn up for the flight and so their luggage was offloaded!! Lucky escape? I really feel for the folks with friends/relatives on board.
I am surprised no one has come forward with conspiracy theories yet! Missing 60 hours with no trace, I'll start them off.
1. Death vapourizing ray tested on live target.
2. Complex kidnap of the rich American business man on board.
3. Whole plane stolen by landing it secretly somewhere.
4. My favourite. Alien aduction.
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If it was terrorist related, I would have expected a video to be posted online by now. They would have arranged it to be done, soon after news broke.
Fact nothing has been said, for me, points to technical problems :-\
The stolen passports showed they intended to fly on to Europe afterwards, or maybe that was just to make it look more normal. :-\
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It's aliens, but they got things wrong and recorded the video on betamax.... ::) :-\
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The Oil slicks they found has now been confirmed its not from the missing plane.
Various potential wrecking sported, has also been reported as being unrelated.
Still a mystery then, and still missing. :-\
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Must be horrendous for the families waiting on news. :(
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Indeed :'(
Vapourised or safe at an airfield in China or North Korea :-\
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Indeed :'(
Vapourised or safe at an airfield in China or North Korea :-\
Couldn't tell yer, Cem.
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Indeed :'(
Vapourised or safe at an airfield in China or North Korea :-\
You cant vapourise an aircraft, there is always plenty of bits that float to give signs of whats left (look at Lockerbie)
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Not counting the fact that any aircraft within the vicinity would have seen the explosion...
Which rules that out...
An avionics fire is a possibility... Although built in redundancy should have enabled a mayday call... Was anything received from that Swissair MD11 a few years back :-\
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About 10 minutes between SR111 declaring a PanPan and declaring a full emergency, but less than twenty seconds between the first full emergency declaration and loss of radar contact...
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Iirc, the 777 and the Airbus 330 has on-board telemetrics which collects maintenance data from various on board systems and relays that info in data bursts at set intervals via a satellite link to a ground station :-\
Not sure if it goes back to home base or Boeing :-\
Has this been pick up on by the media yet ?
My theory is its been eaten up in mid air by a evil Chinese crime lord's stealth super plane in a plot similar to the bond film, Moonraker and will be used to take over the world at a later date :D
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Quite worrying about the number of stolen passports that are used to board flights. Mrs V had hers stolen recently.
Also today they said that five people booked in but didn't turn up for the flight and so their luggage was offloaded!! Lucky escape? I really feel for the folks with friends/relatives on board.
I am surprised no one has come forward with conspiracy theories yet! Missing 60 hours with no trace, I'll start them off.
1. Death vapourizing ray tested on live target.
2. Complex kidnap of the rich American business man on board.
3. Whole plane stolen by landing it secretly somewhere.
4. My favourite. Alien aduction.
5. Moon landing.
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The media know sweet diddly pops about anything...
That said a claim by a Chinese group that they were responsible was apparently dismissed as nonwense, but was only reported locally, not over here :-X
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Ah yes, that old chestnut...
The Indian astronauts will find it parked neatly next to the double decker bus ::)
Pesky Transformers are building themselves an airport :D
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http://news.oneindia.in/international/malaysia-airlines-phone-of-missing-passenger-rings-mysteriously-1409512.html
What are the odds on it being on the ground... :-\
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The media know sweet diddly pops about anything...
That said a claim by a Chinese group that they were responsible was apparently dismissed as nonsense, but was only reported locally, not over here :-X
Here... http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20140310000042.
Then again it could be aliens... http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1103&MainCatID=11&id=20140306000137
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The media know sweet diddly pops about anything...
That said a claim by a Chinese group that they were responsible was apparently dismissed as nonwense, but was only reported locally, not over here :-X
I didn't know you actually spoke Chinese. :)
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still not found it the chiunese are geting arsey
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The media know sweet diddly pops about anything...
That said a claim by a Chinese group that they were responsible was apparently dismissed as nonwense, but was only reported locally, not over here :-X
I didn't know you actually spoke Chinese. :)
It must have been all those crispy Duck pancakes ;D
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Sometimes I supplies even myself ;D
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;D ;D
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http://news.oneindia.in/international/malaysia-airlines-phone-of-missing-passenger-rings-mysteriously-1409512.html
What are the odds on it being on the ground... :-\
one way or another, Im sure it is.
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Just heard a chap on the Radio 2 news (didn't catch his name) say that the authorities know more about this than they are letting on, and they have been searching The Malacca Straights, which is the opposite side of Malaysia from where the plane was supposed to be! :o ::) :-\
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http://news.oneindia.in/international/malaysia-airlines-phone-of-missing-passenger-rings-mysteriously-1409512.html
What are the odds on it being on the ground... :-\
one way or another, Im sure it is.
Fair point :'(
Meant squirreled away somewhere rather than otherwise..
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Just heard a chap on the Radio 2 news (didn't catch his name) say that the authorities know more about this than they are letting on, and they have been searching The Malacca Straights, which is the opposite side of Malaysia from where the plane was supposed to be! :o ::) :-\
Hopefull not the eejit from Jeremy Whine earlier ::) Trying to dress it up as another, cringe, 9/11... A BA pilot rang in after and basically told Jessy to stop stirring the media shitpot ;D
Without evidence to the contrary, the plane could as likely have landed safely somewhere. Disappearing an hour into a six hour flight leaves about six hours of fuel... an easy 2400 mile radius
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Just heard a chap on the Radio 2 news (didn't catch his name) say that the authorities know more about this than they are letting on, and they have been searching The Malacca Straights, which is the opposite side of Malaysia from where the plane was supposed to be! :o ::) :-\
There is no surprise in that as earlier it was announced that the plane may have turned and headed back to it's departure airport and could well have flown over the Malacca Straight when it disappeared. :y
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Just heard a chap on the Radio 2 news (didn't catch his name) say that the authorities know more about this than they are letting on, and they have been searching The Malacca Straights, which is the opposite side of Malaysia from where the plane was supposed to be! :o ::) :-\
Hopefull not the eejit from Jeremy Whine earlier ::) Trying to dress it up as another, cringe, 9/11... A BA pilot rang in after and basically told Jessy to stop stirring the media shitpot ;D
Without evidence to the contrary, the plane could as likely have landed safely somewhere. Disappearing an hour into a six hour flight leaves about six hours of fuel... an easy 2400 mile radius
MMM, and no one knows?????? I think we can discount that.
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Just heard a chap on the Radio 2 news (didn't catch his name) say that the authorities know more about this than they are letting on, and they have been searching The Malacca Straights, which is the opposite side of Malaysia from where the plane was supposed to be! :o ::) :-\
Hopefull not the eejit from Jeremy Whine earlier ::) Trying to dress it up as another, cringe, 9/11... A BA pilot rang in after and basically told Jessy to stop stirring the media shitpot ;D
Without evidence to the contrary, the plane could as likely have landed safely somewhere. Disappearing an hour into a six hour flight leaves about six hours of fuel... an easy 2400 mile radius
MMM, and no one knows?????? I think we can discount that.
No proof of anything with no aircraft/debris ::)
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Somethings got to come to light soon :-\
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"Two Italian passengers said to be aboard the flight turned out to be safe on the ground, when they told authorities that their passports had, in fact, been stolen earlier. Someone aboard the flight was said to be using them, one of whom resembled a famous soccer player" :o
What is interesting is these aircraft are supposedlyfitted with a device that transmits data back to base about the plane periodically. Has anyone officially said they have /haven't been receiving that?
maybe global warming has caused the Bermuda Triangle to shift. :-\
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"Two Italian passengers said to be aboard the flight turned out to be safe on the ground, when they told authorities that their passports had, in fact, been stolen earlier. Someone aboard the flight was said to be using them, one of whom resembled a famous soccer player" :o
What is interesting is these aircraft are supposedlyfitted with a device that transmits data back to base about the plane periodically. Has anyone officially said they have /haven't been receiving that?
maybe global warming has caused the Bermuda Triangle to shift. :-\
not that far from the devil's sea (http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-dragons-triangle.htm) (or dragon triangle)
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There is much speculation and theorising over this incident .. but, in all honesty, there are many more questions than there are answers, and the world's experts are just as confused - but are being sensible and not coming up with the wild suppositions of the media ...
Other than the, sensible, questions asked in the media regarding debris and lack of it, satellite tracking and routing, communication or the lack of it .. etc etc there are the questions that those who know the aircraft, and the "system" are asking .. but are unable to answer ...
1) Every aircraft is fitted with an emergency locator beacon, this is activated by both impact and/or water, and the failure rate is miniscule. It has not been activated - which leads to a lot of questions ....
2) The commonly called "black boxes" - actually bright orange and made to detach and float - also have locator beacons - these also have not been activated.
3) In the event of a total engine failure - an unlikely but possible occurrence - the aircraft would descend in a steep "glide" of around 6000 ft/minute. From 35000 ft that is 6 minutes ... more than enough for a distress call on the battery powered radios
4) In the event of an explosive decompression, or a bomb - the aircraft "falling apart" - numerous items would float .. seats, liferafts, clothing, suitcases etc etc ... nothing has been found
For an aircraft, and 200+ passengers with all their luggage etc etc to simply disapear without trace is, actually, unprecedented.. in every other equivalent mishap there has been some trace of the wreckage......
More questions than answers at the moment ....
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That's a good analysis. :y
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That's a good analysis. :y
So what option is there beyond a UFO whisking it away?........ :-\ :-\
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That's a good analysis. :y
So what option is there beyond a UFO whisking it away?........ :-\ :-\
There are as many "options" as there are idiotic reporters/conspiracy theorists/weirdos ... but from an aviation safety point of view there are no clues or pointers that lead to any reasonable supposition ... lots of "unreasonable guesses" .. but nothing factual .. and that is the conundrum .... :(
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That's a good analysis. :y
So what option is there beyond a UFO whisking it away?........ :-\ :-\
There are as many "options" as there are idiotic reporters/conspiracy theorists/weirdos ... but from an aviation safety point of view there are no clues or pointers that lead to any reasonable supposition ... lots of "unreasonable guesses" .. but nothing factual .. and that is the conundrum .... :(
So we can't dismiss Alien intervention then? (Toung in Cheek)....... :-\ :-\
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That's a good analysis. :y
So what option is there beyond a UFO whisking it away?........ :-\ :-\
There are as many "options" as there are idiotic reporters/conspiracy theorists/weirdos ... but from an aviation safety point of view there are no clues or pointers that lead to any reasonable supposition ... lots of "unreasonable guesses" .. but nothing factual .. and that is the conundrum .... :(
So we can't dismiss Alien intervention then? (Toung in Cheek)....... :-\ :-\
Even without the tongue in cheek :) ... at the moment ..nothing can be discounted ... because there is literally .. no information, a 777 is around 660,000 lbs max weight ...around 300 tons .. that's one hell of a lot to "vanish" in to thin air ....
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Is it theoretically possible to disable all of the tracking gizmos and fly the plane somewhere else without anyone knowing? ???
Sounds a bit fantastical, but...... :-\
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Has anyone checked Liverpool yet???
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It's on the island.
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It's on the island.
yup. Dhama project :y
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Unless there was a terrorist threat, and China's MIGs shot it down :-\
As to Lost, what were the writers smoking?
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That's a good analysis. :y
So what option is there beyond a UFO whisking it away?........ :-\ :-\
There are as many "options" as there are idiotic reporters/conspiracy theorists/weirdos ... but from an aviation safety point of view there are no clues or pointers that lead to any reasonable supposition ... lots of "unreasonable guesses" .. but nothing factual .. and that is the conundrum .... :(
So we can't dismiss Alien intervention then? (Toung in Cheek)....... :-\ :-\
Even without the tongue in cheek :) ... at the moment ..nothing can be discounted ... because there is literally .. no information, a 777 is around 660,000 lbs max weight ...around 300 tons .. that's one hell of a lot to "vanish" in to thin air ....
There yer go. In the absence of anything from the worlds experts, the conspiracy theories will abound. I'm now favouring alien abduction. ;D ;D
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Its been assimilated by a borg cube,so the Borg can assimilated the world. ;D
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resistance is futile?
what about a giant mother ship swallowing it, like the Bond movie? just as (un)likely
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resistance is futile?
what about a giant mother ship swallowing it, like the Bond movie? just as (un)likely
It would have to be a stealth giant mother ship though, wouldn't it? :-\
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Its been assimilated by a borg cube,so the Borg can assimilated the world. ;D
As long as they send 'Seven of Nine', down first!!
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Is it theoretically possible to disable all of the tracking gizmos and fly the plane somewhere else without anyone knowing? ???
Sounds a bit fantastical, but...... :-\
The short answer is 'yes' it is perfectly possible, but the crew would need to be organised, and in total agreement. Afterall, in this day and age, the first whiff of summat amiss and one of the passengers would have tweeted or phoned or texted :-\
(Pure speculation) It is possible that the black boxes might be removed for maintenance purposes and for operational reasons the plane was rushed back into service having been signed off as fit by a manager who didn't know/check/care that all was in order. This would explain both the airlines reticence and also why the plane hasn't been found yet... no one would own up to that size screw up, but once the aircraft is found, forensics come into play and the subsequent investigation with pull at every thread, regardless of where it leads.
The lack of a debris field speaks volumes, as large jets almost never survive landing on open water... remember that hijacked Etheopian 767 a few years back, text book unpowered landing but a wing tip clipped a wave and the plane entered the water in three pieces. The A320 in New york was mostly shere luck helped by the fact that the aircrafts control systems were fully functional, and that the water was sheltered.
Had it exploded in mid air, at that altitude, visibility is knocking on the door of 200 miles, not to mention the time for burning debris to fall. Did anyone in the area report anything? No one's saying... and looking at this, there was an aircraft in the vicinity at the point it vanished...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-3221009
Entwoods observation about having time to make a distress call is equally important... a significant problem would have prompted a radio call, even if it was a simple 'Houston, we have a problem'.
If you listen to both of these links, they are typical radio exchange from the 'Summat's not right through to the end...
NWS (last ten minutes of SR111 :'( No explosions or swearing, just a radio conversation between professionals dealing with a problem)
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt_Wpcj2iIo
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAjJWuWhcoQ
One of two things happened to MH370, either catastrophic or orchestrated... the current lack of any debris suggests the latter :-\
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resistance is futile?
what about a giant mother ship swallowing it, like the Bond movie? just as (un)likely
It would have to be a stealth giant mother ship though, wouldn't it? :-\
If aliens exist and IF they have the technology to travel huge distances that we can only dream about, then they will have available all sorts of technology we cannot comprehend.
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resistance is futile?
what about a giant mother ship swallowing it, like the Bond movie? just as (un)likely
It would have to be a stealth giant mother ship though, wouldn't it? :-\
If aliens exist and IF they have the technology to travel huge distances that we can only dream about, then they will have available all sorts of technology we cannot comprehend.
Then what do they want with around 200 chinese people and a Boeing 777 plane :-\
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resistance is futile?
what about a giant mother ship swallowing it, like the Bond movie? just as (un)likely
It would have to be a stealth giant mother ship though, wouldn't it? :-\
If aliens exist and IF they have the technology to travel huge distances that we can only dream about, then they will have available all sorts of technology we cannot comprehend.
Then what do they want with around 200 chinese people and a Boeing 777 plane :-\
That is the 64$ question... ;D
On a space theme, what would the effect of dropping a meteor on to a cruising airliner be :-\
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The Swiss apparently fired the Large Hadron Collider on the same day that the plane went missing .... Maybe they created a black hole, the plane entered said black hole and the people are all safe in an alternate universe ??
Odd how there are reports of their phones still ringing too
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If we're 'entertaining' Science Fiction...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097883/
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If we're 'entertaining' Science Fiction...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097883/
Remember that film, good film even better with Cheryl Ladd in it :-* :-*
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OK new theory.
Oxygen in plane ran out(puncture/malfunction) and pilots didn't realise and so :
Didn't manually help themselves to oxygen and
didn't press button to release masks for passengers
Went into a coma
Plane continued flying itself until it ran out of fuel
No one watching on radar thought it unusual because "it wasn't their plane" and not their job
It crashed a thousand miles from where they are "looking" :(
Gosh, I can't believe I favoured alien abduction for a time. :o
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OK new theory.
Oxygen in plane ran out(puncture/malfunction) and pilots didn't realise and so :
Didn't manually help themselves to oxygen and
didn't press button to release masks for passengers
Went into a coma
Plane continued flying itself until it ran out of fuel
No one watching on radar thought it unusual because "it wasn't their plane" and not their job
It crashed a thousand miles from where they are "looking" :(
Gosh, I can't believe I favoured alien abduction for a time. :o
Sorry ... can't happen on a modern airliner, both audio and visual warnings of pressurisation failure at a relatively low differential pressure, also the "drop down" masks are activated automatically by the same system, deliberately set to prevent exactly the scenario you postulate ... :( ... the only way it could happen would be both a failure of the pressurisation system AND a total failure of ALL the warning/safety systems ....
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Have they located the aircraft using hi-res satellite images?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2579064/Could-YOU-solve-mystery-missing-Malaysia-Airlines-flight-Satellite-images-public-help-locate-MH370-jet.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2579064/Could-YOU-solve-mystery-missing-Malaysia-Airlines-flight-Satellite-images-public-help-locate-MH370-jet.html)
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OK new theory.
Oxygen in plane ran out(puncture/malfunction) and pilots didn't realise and so :
Didn't manually help themselves to oxygen and
didn't press button to release masks for passengers
Went into a coma
Plane continued flying itself until it ran out of fuel
No one watching on radar thought it unusual because "it wasn't their plane" and not their job
It crashed a thousand miles from where they are "looking" :(
Gosh, I can't believe I favoured alien abduction for a time. :o
Sorry ... can't happen on a modern airliner, both audio and visual warnings of pressurisation failure at a relatively low differential pressure, also the "drop down" masks are activated automatically by the same system, deliberately set to prevent exactly the scenario you postulate ... :( ... the only way it could happen would be both a failure of the pressurisation system AND a total failure of ALL the warning/safety systems ....
Oh that is a blow. I thought for a minute I had solved it. Back to alien abduction as hot favourite then. Gosh what a disappointment.
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OK new theory.
Oxygen in plane ran out(puncture/malfunction) and pilots didn't realise and so :
Didn't manually help themselves to oxygen and
didn't press button to release masks for passengers
Went into a coma
Plane continued flying itself until it ran out of fuel
No one watching on radar thought it unusual because "it wasn't their plane" and not their job
It crashed a thousand miles from where they are "looking" :(
Gosh, I can't believe I favoured alien abduction for a time. :o
Sorry ... can't happen on a modern airliner, both audio and visual warnings of pressurisation failure at a relatively low differential pressure, also the "drop down" masks are activated automatically by the same system, deliberately set to prevent exactly the scenario you postulate ... :( ... the only way it could happen would be both a failure of the pressurisation system AND a total failure of ALL the warning/safety systems ....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522)
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Saves me digging the link out...
That Helios incident happened long enough ago for changes to be implemented in order to prevent a repeat occurrence :y although that particular incident was down to the crew complacency as much as anything :-\
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Saves me digging the link out...
That Helios incident happened long enough ago for changes to be implemented in order to prevent a repeat occurrence :y although that particular incident was down to the crew complacency as much as anything :-\
Not casting nasturtiums or anything but this crew is the same crew that invited dolly birds up from the passengers and had photos taken with them.(now available on't net). Changes implemented? Possibly.
No, I am back with sudden cockpit depressurisation. That would explain why phones continued to ring out but no one answered.
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Sudden decompression = explosive decompression which means debris, plus an immediate Mayday call :y
Doesn't have to be catastrophic, but usually is...
A case in point :y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_811
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the image they are saying is a plane under water looks more like a ship, poss ww2 or a ship sunk to create an artifical reef.
As for phones still ringing the batterys would have died by now.
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What was that surreal film based on a Stephen King book about a missing plane in a delayed timezone being eaten by mechanical thingies?
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What was that surreal film based on a Stephen King book about a missing plane in a delayed timezone being eaten by mechanical thingies?
The Langoliers ;) Loved the book :y
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Looks like they found it via Chinese Satellite more or less where it was expected to have been originally and consistent with the sighting by oil rig worker
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Looks like they found it via Chinese Satellite more or less where it was expected to have been originally and consistent with the sighting by oil rig worker
Here's hoping :-\ The sooner they find it then the sooner they can explain what happened and the victims can be laid to rest...
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Not to sound like the doomsday profit or anything .... but ... It's looking more and more like they are only ever going to find sunken wreckage of this plane!
There is apparently an oil rig worker claiming he "may" have seen a plane go down (I forget the link), and I have no idea how I even came across this either because that isn't what I searched for ... http://patdollard.com/2014/03/missing-mh370-fishermen-found-life-raft-marked-boarding-near-port-dixon-malaysia/
You have to feel sorry for the poor families of these people :( Will anyone ever know what happened? And when will they release the movie?
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Liferafts typically have one entrance, with a rope ladder for ease of access. They are marked all round with the word 'Boarding' and an arrow to indicate the shortest distance to the ladder/entrance... that liferaft has most likely been washed off a ship, they're designed to inflate in contact with salt water/when a rip cord is pulled.
Aircraft liferafts have to be inflated manually, and for the most part are grey or yellow :y they also tend to be rectangular as they double up as escape slides. Extra liferafts are carried on some aircraft on certain ETOPS routes. These are about 8'x3'x10", and require 4+ blokes to move (they weigh nearly 300kgs). They are usually kept in ceiling stowages or in overhead lockers. The reality is that no incident would ever see them used, as times when they would be suitable never happen :-\
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Oh dear :(
Yes I know its the Mail ;D
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2579758/U-S-air-travel-watchdog-warned-six-months-ago-Boeing-jets-similar-missing-flight-MH370-vulnerable-mid-air-break-up.html
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Oh dear :(
Yes I know its the Mail ;D
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2579758/U-S-air-travel-watchdog-warned-six-months-ago-Boeing-jets-similar-missing-flight-MH370-vulnerable-mid-air-break-up.html
Oh, that well-known authority on all things aviation, the Daily Fail.. I mustn't read it. No.. Oh, go on, then. ::)
American aviation chiefs warned six months ago that a kind of Boeing jet similar to the Malaysian Airlines plane that has gone missing was vulnerable to a mid-air break up.
"Similar?" ???, and if it had broken up at cruising altitude I doubt there would be any doubt about its' location by now. There would be bits of it littered all over the South China sea.
The AD applied to other B777 models and not the B777-200ER, which is the model of the missing jet.
Move along, nothing to see here. ::)
.. and show me an aircraft type that doesn't have a list of ADs as long as your arm.
Analysts suggested that if the plane had lost pressure the pilots may have become disorientated and possible fly off course, leading to the confusion over its whereabouts.
.. or would they simply have noted the loss of cabin pressure, donned oxygen masks, declared an emergency, descended to a safe altitude and diverted to the nearest suitable airport?
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Oh dear :(
Yes I know its the Mail ;D
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2579758/U-S-air-travel-watchdog-warned-six-months-ago-Boeing-jets-similar-missing-flight-MH370-vulnerable-mid-air-break-up.html
Oh, that well-known authority on all things aviation, the Daily Fail.. I mustn't read it. No.. Oh, go on, then. ::)
American aviation chiefs warned six months ago that a kind of Boeing jet similar to the Malaysian Airlines plane that has gone missing was vulnerable to a mid-air break up.
"Similar?" ???, and if it had broken up at cruising altitude I doubt there would be any doubt about its' location by now. There would be bits of it littered all over the South China sea.
The AD applied to other B777 models and not the B777-200ER, which is the model of the missing jet.
Move along, nothing to see here. ::)
.. and show me an aircraft type that doesn't have a list of ADs as long as your arm.
Analysts suggested that if the plane had lost pressure the pilots may have become disorientated and possible fly off course, leading to the confusion over its whereabouts.
.. or would they simply have noted the loss of cabin pressure, donned oxygen masks, declared an emergency, descended to a safe altitude and diverted to the nearest suitable airport?
[/highlight]
Remember that 737 series 800 (Helios Airways :-\) that had iirc a gradual failure of cabin pressurisation about 10 years back :-\
Iirc, the last person alive on that one was a member of the cabin staff with a portable oxygen bottle.
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That Airworthiness Directive doesn't apply to the aircraft in question, as confirmed by Boing (Boeing) ::)
But the mail won't bother with details that ruin a good conspiracy ;D
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The Helios crash was caused by an engineer leaving the pressurisation system in Manual following a function test of the system.
Flight crew didn't check/notice and climbed to altitude without setting it to automatic, basically meaning that they climbed to 18000' with the cabin pressure relief valve locked open ::)
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Remember that 737 series 800 (Helios Airways :-\) that had iirc a gradual failure of cabin pressurisation about 10 years back :-\
Iirc, the last person alive on that one was a member of the cabin staff with a portable oxygen bottle.
The one where they ignored the alarms and just carried on as if everything was dandy until they passed out. I suppose that proved it can happen, but...
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The Helios crash was caused by an engineer leaving the pressurisation system in Manual following a function test of the system.
Flight crew didn't check/notice and climbed to altitude without setting it to automatic, basically meaning that they climbed to 18000' with the cabin pressure relief valve locked open ::)
Indeed... and in terms of noticing these things, I would imagine that there's a big difference between climbing to 18000 feet with no cabin pressurisation and slipping into a deep sleep to the backdrop of the alarm sounding, and climbing to 37000 feet with proper cabin pressurisation and then losing it rapidly. :o
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Indeed Kevin...
I refer to my earlier link
Sudden decompression = explosive decompression which means debris, plus an immediate Mayday call :y
Doesn't have to be catastrophic, but usually is...
A case in point :y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_811
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Remember that 737 series 800 (Helios Airways :-\) that had iirc a gradual failure of cabin pressurisation about 10 years back :-\
Iirc, the last person alive on that one was a member of the cabin staff with a portable oxygen bottle.
The one where they ignored the alarms and just carried on as if everything was dandy until they passed out. I suppose that proved it can happen, but...
At the end of the day, everybody is just pishing in the wind on this ........... nobody has a clue what has happened here but a nice bit of healthy speculation never hurt anybody ;)
With dodgy maintenance cutbacks and the pressure to get the plane off the ground, anything could have happened here :)
Anyway, my money is still on a evil Chinese crime lord with a giant stealth supper guppy type aircraft swallowing it up in mid flight ............ :D :D :D
Enjoy :)
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Yanks said they have an idea where it is.
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Indeed. It's interesting to speculate, but that's all we can do. Rest assured that, sooner or later, the black boxes WILL turn up, and we WILL get to the bottom of it. That is what has made aviation as safe as it is today. Aircraft, on the whole, don't disappear off the face of the earth - not for long, at any rate.
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Indeed. It's interesting to speculate, but that's all we can do. Rest assured that, sooner or later, the black boxes WILL turn up, and we WILL get to the bottom of it. That is what has made aviation as safe as it is today. Aircraft, on the whole, don't disappear off the face of the earth - not for long, at any rate.
Yes.......And then the 'alien abduction theory' will look ever so slightly silly. ;) :D
Apparently, about 40% of all americans say they have been 'taken' by beings from another world.
Yanks, don't you just love em'. ;D
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What was that surreal film based on a Stephen King book about a missing plane in a delayed timezone being eaten by mechanical thingies?
The Langoliers ;) Loved the book :y
Yup, that's the one
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Indeed. It's interesting to speculate, but that's all we can do. Rest assured that, sooner or later, the black boxes WILL turn up, and we WILL get to the bottom of it. That is what has made aviation as safe as it is today. Aircraft, on the whole, don't disappear off the face of the earth - not for long, at any rate.
Yes.......And then the 'alien abduction theory' will look ever so slightly silly. ;) :D
Apparently, about 40% of all americans say they have been 'taken' by beings from another world.
Yanks, don't you just love em'. ;D
Yeah, I remember reading about one in my childhood. Took him off his driveway, gave him a ride in the spaceship, fed him pancakes which "were OK, if a little greasy", then dropped him off again. Sound like pretty decent chaps, these aliens. ::)
Or maybe he just spent too long sitting on his porch in the sun? :-\
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I really can't believe that they haven't found this plane yet! Maybe they are hiding something ... maybe they have found it, Or maybe it's never going to be found (hard to believe given the size of a B777)!
This thing will appear in 20 years on an airport runway and all the passengers will be thinking "WTF is all the fuss about? it was only a normal flight" :D
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It is thoughtt that the US can track Russian subs in deep water on a global scale.
the black boxes transmit ultrasonic signals in water. perhaps we`re just waiting for the US military to crunch the numbers from all their assets. :-\
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Radio signals are different to sonar :y does also assume that the aicraft is underwater...
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Indeed. It's interesting to speculate, but that's all we can do. Rest assured that, sooner or later, the black boxes WILL turn up, and we WILL get to the bottom of it. That is what has made aviation as safe as it is today. Aircraft, on the whole, don't disappear off the face of the earth - not for long, at any rate.
Yes.......And then the 'alien abduction theory' will look ever so slightly silly. ;) :D
Apparently, about 40% of all americans say they have been 'taken' by beings from another world.
Yanks, don't you just love em'. ;D
Hmmm. Jet Aeroplanes are pretty big things. Big things in the sky are(supposedly) monitored by countries whose airspace they are passing through. What have the Vietnamese got to say about "where is the plane you took over monitoring?" Plus there is sufficient other monitoring of planes, ships etc by other nations (in this case Chinese and Americans) that they must have an idea where it is, especially if it went rogue. Planes don't just vanish but could if alien abducted!
I am favouring slow cockpit decompression. Crew asleep(does happen) with plane on autopilot and then pass out through lack of oxygen. Plane flies on new course when it turned(for whatever reason) and it flew on apparently unnoticed (nightime and air traffic controllers not very vigilant?) before running out of fuel in the middle of the Indian Ocean thousands of miles away from where they are looking.
In police thrillers the cops ask the phone companies to triangulate the location of mobiles (assuming a signal there would have been miscreants on board with their phones switched on). I wonder if the FBI have done that?
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In the decompression scenario, though, the aircraft's transponder would have remained working. This would have allowed the aircraft to be tracked accurately and the authorities would have known about the problem before it even crashed. In the past, military jets have been scrambled to intercept airliners that have gone off course (the Helios one being a case in point). I would certainly expect that to happen in the light of 9-11, and if it crossed any borders it shouldn't have. :-\
Once the transponder stopped working, tracking the aircraft would have to rely on primary radar, i.e. a return bounced off the aircraft's hull itself, rather than a packet of data interrogated from the aircraft containing accurate identification and position information. Yes, you'd expect a country to be looking for that sort of thing in its' airspace, but it's a lot more difficult to tie to an individual aircraft, radar range would be much reduced and, if the aircraft was over international waters by then, maybe they didn't care much. You only have to look at the flight's trace on flightradar24.com, etc. to see that it went missing in an area with very good secondary radar coverage, yet no wreckage has been found there.
What would you do if you were going to divert a jet from its' course and you didn't want to be tracked? Wait until you're established en-route over the sea, turn off the transponder, descend to low level out of primary radar coverage, then toddle off to where you want to be, perhaps? Maybe, that's what happened, but the aircraft ditched from low level and thus didn't spread much wreckage and wasn't where it "should" have been, hence very hard to locate?
There's the possibility that the aircraft was carrying satellite based comms equipment, which is often used to update ground stations on the aircraft's status in real-time. It's odd that nothing has been mentioned about that, although I did hear a report that Rolls Royce were still receiving monitoring data from the engine systems via such a link after the aircraft lost contact. It seems inconceivable that such a data link wouldn't also include GPS position. :-\
As for mobile phones - well, an airliner is a pretty effective Faraday cage, so, for a mobile phone to get a signal out through the fuselage is going some. To then make it hundreds of miles to a base station on the ground is impossible. Mobile phones are designed to work within 10-20 of miles of a base site at the most. Besides, digital mobile phone networks have other constraints that mean there are absolute limits on how far a mobile can be from the base site, and how fast it can be travelling, due to round trip delay and doppler issues, so no, I don't think mobile phones on board will have come into play, except that, if the aircraft landed anywhere near civilisation, they would almost certainly have given the game away.
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I suspect Vietnamese scrap dealers have nicked it and it's being broken as we speak. Expect to see a flood of Boeing 777 spares appearing on vbay! :D
Industrial espionage? Maybe the Chinese have nicked it so they can reverse engineer the RR Trent engines! ::)
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I did hear a report that Rolls Royce were still receiving monitoring data from the engine systems via such a link after the aircraft lost contact. It seems inconceivable that such a data link wouldn't also include GPS position. :-\
I know that the setup does not include GPS position info (GE also have a similar system), its due to the bounds of certain regulations regarding data collection from devices on board aircraft and positioning information is not allowed (plus its challenging to get accurate GPS info without good external antennas and base station correction data)
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I suspect Vietnamese scrap dealers have nicked it and it's being broken as we speak. Expect to see a flood of Boeing 777 spares appearing on vbay! :D
Industrial espionage? Maybe the Chinese have nicked it so they can reverse engineer the RR Trent engines! ::)
They already have 10 on order from Boeing but that might change in the next few weeks ;D
You will probably find the Airbus sales team are on a flight to Beijing with a new financial package as we speak ;)
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In the decompression scenario, though, the aircraft's transponder would have remained working. This would have allowed the aircraft to be tracked accurately and the authorities would have known about the problem before it even crashed. In the past, military jets have been scrambled to intercept airliners that have gone off course (the Helios one being a case in point). I would certainly expect that to happen in the light of 9-11, and if it crossed any borders it shouldn't have. :-\
Once the transponder stopped working, tracking the aircraft would have to rely on primary radar, i.e. a return bounced off the aircraft's hull itself, rather than a packet of data interrogated from the aircraft containing accurate identification and position information. Yes, you'd expect a country to be looking for that sort of thing in its' airspace, but it's a lot more difficult to tie to an individual aircraft, radar range would be much reduced and, if the aircraft was over international waters by then, maybe they didn't care much. You only have to look at the flight's trace on flightradar24.com, etc. to see that it went missing in an area with very good secondary radar coverage, yet no wreckage has been found there.
What would you do if you were going to divert a jet from its' course and you didn't want to be tracked? Wait until you're established en-route over the sea, turn off the transponder, descend to low level out of primary radar coverage, then toddle off to where you want to be, perhaps? Maybe, that's what happened, but the aircraft ditched from low level and thus didn't spread much wreckage and wasn't where it "should" have been, hence very hard to locate?
There's the possibility that the aircraft was carrying satellite based comms equipment, which is often used to update ground stations on the aircraft's status in real-time. It's odd that nothing has been mentioned about that, although I did hear a report that Rolls Royce were still receiving monitoring data from the engine systems via such a link after the aircraft lost contact. It seems inconceivable that such a data link wouldn't also include GPS position. :-\
As for mobile phones - well, an airliner is a pretty effective Faraday cage, so, for a mobile phone to get a signal out through the fuselage is going some. To then make it hundreds of miles to a base station on the ground is impossible. Mobile phones are designed to work within 10-20 of miles of a base site at the most. Besides, digital mobile phone networks have other constraints that mean there are absolute limits on how far a mobile can be from the base site, and how fast it can be travelling, due to round trip delay and doppler issues, so no, I don't think mobile phones on board will have come into play, except that, if the aircraft landed anywhere near civilisation, they would almost certainly have given the game away.
Very interesting site :y Just looked. Theres millions in the sky ;D ;D
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They already have 10 on order from Boeing but that might change in the next few weeks ;D
You will probably find the Airbus sales team are on a flight to Beijing with a new financial package as we speak ;)
Could be right TG, doubt they will have a chance in hell to secure a new Sale though.
Might have more chance if they go to Kuala Lumpur though, which is where AM are based. ;)
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They already have 10 on order from Boeing but that might change in the next few weeks ;D
You will probably find the Airbus sales team are on a flight to Beijing with a new financial package as we speak ;)
Could be right TG, doubt they will have a chance in hell to secure a new Sale though.
Might have more chance if they go to Kuala Lumpur though, which is where AM are based. ;)
Good point that ::) ;D ;D
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The Chinese already glue bits of the Boing 787 together, which incidentally was why it was so late being launched ::)
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The Chinese already glue bits of the Boing 787 together, which incidentally was why it was so late being launched ::)
Let me guess... They make the batteries, too.. Now they haven't got the Dell laptop contract any more. ;D
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Inmarsat are now saying one of their Sat Networks was receiving 'Pings' from the Plane up to 5 hours after it went missing. :-\
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Inmarsat are now saying one of their Sat Networks was receiving 'Pings' from the Plane up to 5 hours after it went missing. :-\
It sounds a bit dodgy imo
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BBC news says 48 planes, and a number of ships, are searching the area.
I guess flightradar doesn't show military air craft then, as not a single aircraft "shown" in that area is anything other than an airline going about its normal business.
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BBC news says 48 planes, and a number of ships, are searching the area.
I guess flightradar doesn't show military air craft then, as not a single aircraft "shown" in that area is anything other than an airline going about its normal business.
Think its about 2 or 3 in the morning out there now, so that might have something to do with it.
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Military transponder frequencies are classified for reasonably obvious reasons ;D
You could imagine the Taliban, sitting happy as Larry in their caves...
"Don't worry about putting that goat casserole on Dear, there's three Tornados just taken off from Cyprus"
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Good points well presented. ;D
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A serious and very interesting piece of reporting ... not your daily fail headline seeking crap ...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e4ca1414-ab60-11e3-8cae-00144feab7de.html#axzz2vyrndE2W
Edit .. bugger .. looks like you need access to my account to read it .. sorry :(
the major point I was trying to highlight ...
"There is an increasing suspicion among the aviation community and investigators that the aircraft could have been hijacked. The various communications systems on the jet appear to have been deliberately and systematically shut down, including the transponder which gives details identifying the aircraft, its speed, altitude and heading.
The hijackers of the 9/11 aircraft acted in the same way. The transmission of secondary data from the aircraft – which allows engineers on the ground to monitor the condition of its major systems, such as its engines, via a broadcast system known as Acars, also ceased.
But an automatic system attached to Acars kept running and sent the signals to the satellite. Malaysian Airlines was not subscribed to the satellite service, which meant no data were transferred."
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A serious and very interesting piece of reporting ... not your daily fail headline seeking crap ...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e4ca1414-ab60-11e3-8cae-00144feab7de.html#axzz2vyrndE2W
Edit .. bugger .. looks like you need access to my account to read it .. sorry :(
Link doesn't work, need to sign in as a member. ::)
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I refer the honourable gent to Reply#7 :y
Especially as they have yet to find a single scrap of debris...
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I refer the honourable gent to Reply#7 :y
Especially as they have yet to find a single scrap of debris...
Not disagreeing in any way ... but it looks like the "evidence" might also be starting to point that way ... :(
I still ask the question who/why ??
Terrorism.. thrives on/requires publicity to impart its "terror" ... and AFAIK no group has claimed responsibility ... so terrorism without terror .. makes no sense...
Political .. also needs publicity if making a "statement" .. if "escaping"/demanding exile from some regime .. you land somewhere and make your request ... you don't "vanish"
Financial/coercion ... I suppose at the extreme it could be a "kidnapping"/ransom with the demands being kept VERY secretive .. but unlikely.. as is a "contract killing" of someone on board .. taking out the whole lot is pretty ruthless...
Still too many unanswered questions .. :(
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I refer the honourable gent to Reply#7 :y
Especially as they have yet to find a single scrap of debris...
Although now they're starting to search the Indian Ocean in the vicinity of the Andaman Islands. :-\
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I refer the honourable gent to Reply#7 :y
Especially as they have yet to find a single scrap of debris...
Although now they're starting to search the Indian Ocean in the vicinity of the Andaman Islands. :-\
Not forgetting, they are undertaking land searches in that area also ... So many theories and yet still no plane found! Maybe it is in the ocean, but it's that deep no-one will ever find it ... Here's for hoping there was a Thompson Holiday's rep onboard that has taken them on an unplanned surprise vacation ???
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Here's for hoping there was a Thompson Holiday's rep onboard that has taken them on an unplanned surprise vacation ???
We go mystally tour!! :-X :D
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Here's for hoping there was a Thompson Holiday's rep onboard that has taken them on an unplanned surprise vacation ???
We go mystally tour!! :-X :D
I nearly fell off my chair :D
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;D
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Looks like the communications were deliberately disabled for whatever reason
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26591056
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Alien abduction Sophisticated kidnap?
Still doesn't answer where is the plane and how can a plane just fly around the skies with no one "noticing" or intercepting with military jet.
Are air crews luggage subject to security checks like the passengers? If the crew hijacked their own plane how did they subdue the passengers? Otherwise the minute they landed or had to leave the cockpit the passengers would overcome them.
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Sounding like the pilots went tonto. But still no sign of the plane :-\
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Alien abduction Sophisticated kidnap?
Still doesn't answer where is the plane and how can a plane just fly around the skies with no one "noticing" or intercepting with military jet.
Are air crews luggage subject to security checks like the passengers? If the crew hijacked their own plane how did they subdue the passengers? Otherwise the minute they landed or had to leave the cockpit the passengers would overcome them.
Without a transponder signal the aircraft is invisible to everything except local radar (just a blip on a screen) and the naked eye (it was dark, so reasonbable to assume that they also turned the lights off). If it's not near anything sensitive, no one would really raise an eyebrow, and being dark it becomes a hole in the sky.
The passengers were on a six hour night flight, the first sign of an issue would be when they landed and couldn't get off the plane.
The crew all go through the same security checks as any passenger or airport worker, the more complicated you make summat, the more likely you are to get caught. Equally the more people in the loop, the more chance of an information leak.
Based on what is known... this is how I would have done it...
1.Transponder, exterior lights off.
2. Flight deck full face oxygen masks on. (cockpit has plumbed in long term oxygen supply).
3. Reduce cabin pressure from 10,000ft to say 2-3000, whilst simultaneously climbing to 40-45,000ft. This would purge the breathable atmosphere from the cabin, incapacitating the passengers/crew. (An alternative would be drugging the meals during the meal service but given the time of the flight, first meal was probably breakfast...)
4. Return to a flight level low enough to enable visual navigation, but not so low as to be suspicious and critically a flight level not full of aircraft, say 20-25,000 ft
5. Fly to a destination of my choice, possibly Pakistan.
If I were a suicidal type, I would bin it somewhere loud and obvious, much like the EgyptAir pilot in '99.
If I were a simple terrorist, I would want the bang to be devastating and again loud and obvious.
If I were a hijacker, I would order the plane to land somewhere and have a long list of demands, again loud and obvious.
If I were a believer in a cause, I would take control of the aircraft, incapacitate the passengers and deliver the aircraft to an Al Qaeda camp in northern Pakistan for them to use it as they will.
If they don't find the wreckage, the next time that aircraft is spotted will be too late...
By the time the authorities start to think a bit beyond their noses, the aircraft will probably be back in the air, and on it's way to it's final destination. My guess on this would be the US east coast via Africa.
Although the ACARS was transmitting a basic signal that could be disabled on the ground easily enough. The transponder could easily be switched with one from an aircraft with similar speed capability (basically any twin engine jet from a Learjet up). It would then be free to fly anywhere on a legitimate private flight plan, and by flying at night, it would never be spotted. Could literally get anywhere.
Think stealing a car, waiting a week to see if it has a tracker fitted, then change the plates and off you go...
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this is how I would have done it...
If I were a suicidal type, If I were a simple terrorist, If I were a hijacker, If I were a believer in a cause,
Starting to get a bit worried about you Al, not sure if I wanna be in your Taxi when you've got the right hump, ;D ;)
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...
Based on what is known... this is how I would have done it...
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As above ??? Do you have an alibi for last Friday ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
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Fear not Ken, I am neither suicidal, a terrorist or a hijacker ;D, besides stealing my own car would be a touch daft ::)
...
Based on what is known... this is how I would have done it...
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As above ??? Do you have an alibi for last Friday ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
What time? I was at work when they finally reported it missing ;D
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.....
What time? I was at work when they finally reported it missing ;D
.......and can someone vouch for that? ::) ::) ::)
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.....
What time? I was at work when they finally reported it missing ;D
.......and can someone vouch for that? ::) ::) ::)
Yep, fairly sure I saw him parking up at the Airport. :)
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.....
What time? I was at work when they finally reported it missing ;D
.......and can someone vouch for that? ::) ::) ::)
Yep, fairly sure I saw him parking up at the Airport. :)
;D ;D ;D
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Sorry Chris, got you confused with Nitro again :-[ ::)
.....
What time? I was at work when they finally reported it missing ;D
.......and can someone vouch for that? ::) ::) ::)
Yep, fairly sure I saw him parking up at the Airport. :)
;D ;D ;D
I've the stub to prove it too ;D
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Just been reading this thread through quickly.
I thought there would have been some or more talk of the Dragon's Triangle? (Sorry if I missed it - my PC is connected to my TV)
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/03/malaysian-flight-mh370-another-victim-of-the-pacific-oceans-bermuda-triangle-dragons-triangle-videos-2916974.html (http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/03/malaysian-flight-mh370-another-victim-of-the-pacific-oceans-bermuda-triangle-dragons-triangle-videos-2916974.html)
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Just arrest taxi al, he knows too much, must have had something to do with it ???
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Just arrest taxi al, he knows too much, must have had something to do with it ???
Not my doing...
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Alien abduction, complex kidnap
I have changed my mind. Al Qua'eda have taken the plane and landed it already in Afghanistan/Pakistan .
They are changing the livery etc and loading it with bombs for a terrorist attack. What is within easy flying distance? Cruise liner?
Even if it is unsuccessful it will have changed forever flying as we knew it only a fortnight ago and thus will be successful in their eyes. I hope I am wrong but the smokescreen stuff we are being fed just doesn't gel. Those in the know knew all this latest stuff days ago. I do accept though that for them to be successful they can't be seen to be on the ball.
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The authorities have announced they are looking for a white Vauxhall
Insignia in connection with the plane's disappearance. It may have a taxi badge on it. The driver apparently knows far too much.
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Now who has an insignia taxi, was near an airport on that day and above all else knows way to much ???
Does this person carry spare shoes I wonder ??
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Considering I don't know you from Adam, that's not funny >:(
Having the knowledge to do summat, and on occasion the opportunity, does not a homicidal sociopath make.
I am a moderately intelligent person, with several years hands on experience of commercial aircraft in a maintenance/ground support environment. I happen to have a reasonable understanding what is, in theory involved in endangering an aircraft and more so, preventing it.
I am also a reasonably competent problem solver, and presented with the known facts of this situation, have merely presented an intelligent interpretation of what is likely to have happened to MH370. Hell, I could even point to a selection of suitable airfields in the region where the aircraft might reasonably be... but then so could anyone with Google maps :-X Here for example... http://www.earthstreetview.com/?lid=1339663_PK_SAIRF_04&place=Fatehjang-Airfield-Pakistan
That the details that are being released appear to bear out my suggestions is pure coincidence, nowt more.
For the record, I have never set foot on a 777, but can reasonably surmise that the flight deck is little different to that of either a 767-400 or a 757-300 glass cockpit :-\
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Considering I don't know you from Adam, that's not funny >:(
Having the knowledge to do summat, and on occasion the opportunity, does not a homicidal sociopath make.
I am a moderately intelligent person, with several years hands on experience of commercial aircraft in a maintenance/ground support environment. I happen to have a reasonable understanding what is, in theory involved in endangering an aircraft and more so, preventing it.
I am also a reasonably competent problem solver, and presented with the known facts of this situation, have merely presented an intelligent interpretation of what is likely to have happened to MH370. Hell, I could even point to a selection of suitable airfields in the region where the aircraft might reasonably be... but then so could anyone with Google maps :-X Here for example... http://www.earthstreetview.com/?lid=1339663_PK_SAIRF_04&place=Fatehjang-Airfield-Pakistan
That the details that are being released appear to bear out my suggestions is pure coincidence, nowt more.
For the record, I have never set foot on a 777, but can reasonably surmise that the flight deck is little different to that of either a 767-400 or a 757-300 glass cockpit :-\
Who is that aimed at??
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You.
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Before you get your knickers in a twist Al ... Did I mention your name??? did my post say Taxi Al on it anywhere??? Would I even care if you happened to be a homicidal sociopath ? And lets face it ... I'm not the only person making these kind of comments am I (regardless of whether they know you or not)!
Apologies if I happen to have offended you in any way :-[
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Before you get your knickers in a twist Al ... Did I mention your name??? did my post say Taxi Al on it anywhere??? Would I even care if you happened to be a homicidal sociopath ? And lets face it ... I'm not the only person making these kind of comments am I (regardless of whether they know you or not)!
Apologies if I happen to have offended you in any way :-[
I conceed that you didn't mention my name directly, but your choice of words left little ambiguity. And whilst you might not have been the only person suggesting anything Toledodude has been here far longer than me, and Pscocoa is a customer of mine. Thus, I found your comment irksome and probably a touch inappropriate, and imho akin to assuming a persons' religion based on their name.
Apology noted.
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While the plane is still unfound it looks very much like the officials are busy playing the media with the Blame Game! It's everyone's fault apart from Malaysia ::) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26603830
As Taxi Al has pointed out with http://www.earthstreetview.com/?lid=1339663_PK_SAIRF_04&place=Fatehjang-Airfield-Pakistan
There are most definitely places that the aircraft could have been landed, before moving on and being hidden ???
Have the officials even thought about this theory? Is the next time we see anything of this aircraft going to be wreckage or embedded into the Petronas Towers ??
Does make you wonder ... And what about the people on board?
@ Taxi Al, Thnx for noting apology I will try not to offend you in the future :y
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They know were it is, and probably who's got it. Just trying to decide on which team to send in,so as not to cause a rumpus. That rules out the shot em up,lets go in guns blazing Americans then.
only two left ones from London and is called Bond,the others from a little market town on the welsh border.
its a bit like a Dan "spider" shepherd story... :)
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If it helps.....My next door neighbour has a white Insignia and carries a spare pair of wellies in his boot.....But he is a game keeper after all...I wonder if he knows anything about the planes location.....Questions will be asked later.. :-\ :-\
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IMHO, we are now in a phase of being carefully "managed" by the Malaysian authorities while they desperately scrabble to save face. Clearly they have known far more than they have released to the public all along, and that this hampered the search in the crucial first day or two of the saga. What is known now paints a picture of total incompetence with respect to keeping their airspace secure. It's a cruel game to play with the loved ones of those who were on board. >:(
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I sold my white Insignia a couple of weeks ago.
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Regardless of local security/radar issues, the US, Russia and China should have pretty effective satellite coverage of the entire area, although, only the Chinese have the manpower/cash/local interest... that said I did find an 8200ft disused runway in central Kazakhstan :-X
I wonder if this is a tentative prelude to a spot of land grabbing in south east Asia :-\ Definitely no way to treat either the people on board or their relatives though :'(
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Regardless of local security/radar issues, the US, Russia and China should have pretty effective satellite coverage of the entire area, although, only the Chinese have the manpower/cash/local interest... that said I did find an 8200ft disused runway in central Kazakhstan :-X
I wonder if this is a tentative prelude to a spot of land grabbing in south east Asia :-\ Definitely no way to treat either the people on board or their relatives though :'(
It could catch on you know. :-\
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Regardless of local security/radar issues, the US, Russia and China should have pretty effective satellite coverage of the entire area, although, only the Chinese have the manpower/cash/local interest... that said I did find an 8200ft disused runway in central Kazakhstan :-X
I wonder if this is a tentative prelude to a spot of land grabbing in south east Asia :-\ Definitely no way to treat either the people on board or their relatives though :'(
It could catch on you know. :-\
This is true, but statistically you'll still be more more likely to be squished by a tipper lorry turning left on a day with a 'y' in it...
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IMHO, we are now in a phase of being carefully "managed" by the Malaysian authorities while they desperately scrabble to save face. Clearly they have known far more than they have released to the public all along, and that this hampered the search in the crucial first day or two of the saga. What is known now paints a picture of total incompetence with respect to keeping their airspace secure. It's a cruel game to play with the loved ones of those who were on board. >:(
A friend of mine used to be a flight engineer for BA and many of his stories were about airports in the far east. What came over loud and clear that in many of the countries saving face is always the top priority. He found the quickest way to get things done when one of the ground crew had done something wrong was to say it was his mistake, which would stop the arguing and saving face blame games and get the job done! :o :o :o
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Looks like Taxi Al has made a good call on the tactics in what has happened to the airline. I would post the Daily Fail link but the word filter breaks the link by changing d a i ly mail to reading mail, so cant be bothered to place it on piecemeal. :(
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This would be a likely candidate...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkalyk_Airport
Nice long runway in the middle of nowhere, if it didn't wind up in Pakistan... only needed to land long enough to swap the transponders, disconnect the ACARS antennae, pop any circuit breakers in the avionics bay, refuel and possibly ditch the passengers. Although waiting until nightfall before moving the aircraft might have been prudent, which gives time to mask the livery :-\
Though for it to cross the Himalayas unnoticed, both Russia and China must have been napping with their pants down :-\ afterall, the Russian have form for blowing wayward commercial jets out of the sky, (as do the Americans...)
Would have been around the Indian/Nepalese/Pakistani border at around 4am local time, so as good a time as any for sneaking past people...
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This would be a likely candidate...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkalyk_Airport
Nice long runway in the middle of nowhere, if it didn't wind up in Pakistan... only needed to land long enough to swap the transponders, disconnect the ACARS antennae, pop any circuit breakers in the avionics bay, refuel and possibly ditch the passengers. Although waiting until nightfall before moving the aircraft might have been prudent, which gives time to mask the livery :-\
Though for it to cross the Himalayas unnoticed, both Russia and China must have been napping with their pants down :-\ afterall, the Russian have form for blowing wayward commercial jets out of the sky, (as do the Americans...)
Would have been around the Indian/Nepalese/Pakistani border at around 4am local time, so as good a time as any for sneaking past people...
You DO know to much suspect number one :D :D ;D
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Interesting theory here: http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68 (http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68)
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That works... :-\
Someone really wants that plane... the who and why are the real questions that noone is asking, probably because the answer is the fear that shall not be faced :-\
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Interesting theory here: http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68 (http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68)
Very interesting, and only one "hole" that I can pick in the argument ... from the moment MH370 lost radio contact, turned West and until it turned north, in this theory shadowing the SIA ... it crossed numerous airways, and according to the plot presented, was not on any actual airway itself. Airways are like "roads in the sky", and if you depart from them Air Defence Radar will (should) query that divergence with the civilian control and if not approved should react .. and clearly that didn't happen, although military radar "appear" to have tracked it .... So I see the final part of his argument ... but not how MH370 got to that point ..... unless military radar are in on the act, or the pilot "knew" he would not be queried .... BIG BIG questions there IMHO
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That time of day is well known for being the best time to be sneaking around, as people are known for being at their least alert.
A timely delivery of pizzas, beer and go go girls to a lonely radar station in the Punjab would do the trick...
A few drinks and a bit too much hashish noone would be certain if they saw anything unusual, and being upto no good they would never report summat that they didn't know for certain :-\
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Recently off the phone to an ex-RAF mate who was a UK Air Defence Radar guy .. it seems I may be wrong in my comments above ....
Apparently, due to the high number of aircraft that an Air Defence radar has to track .. ie every single plane in the sky in the region, a methodology has been developed whereby the radar signature can be annotated with one of 3 designations .. "F" - known friendly - "H" - known hostile - "U" - unclassified. An aircraft with an "F" designation will not be tracked with any high degree of interest .. the Air Defence job is the "H's" and "U's"
So, how does an aircraft get an "F" designation ... basically either from its flight plan, or later attached by an operator. MH370 departed from Malaysian airspace on time, on a pre-planned, approved flight planned route... it would therefore be marked as "F".
Unless, and until, an operator changes that designation it will remain, there is no automatic change. The "turn back" would not be questioned as, from a Military Air Defence viewpoint, it is still friendly, and the re-route could be for any, Civil, Air Traffic reason. ....
That's my understanding of what he told me, and may not be accurate or how the Malaysians operate ... but it does make some things more understandable... to me at least .. :)
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Recently off the phone to an ex-RAF mate who was a UK Air Defence Radar guy .. it seems I may be wrong in my comments above ....
Apparently, due to the high number of aircraft that an Air Defence radar has to track .. ie every single plane in the sky in the region, a methodology has been developed whereby the radar signature can be annotated with one of 3 designations .. "F" - known friendly - "H" - known hostile - "U" - unclassified. An aircraft with an "F" designation will not be tracked with any high degree of interest .. the Air Defence job is the "H's" and "U's"
So, how does an aircraft get an "F" designation ... basically either from its flight plan, or later attached by an operator. MH370 departed from Malaysian airspace on time, on a pre-planned, approved flight planned route... it would therefore be marked as "F".
Unless, and until, an operator changes that designation it will remain, there is no automatic change. The "turn back" would not be questioned as, from a Military Air Defence viewpoint, it is still friendly, and the re-route could be for any, Civil, Air Traffic reason. ....
That's my understanding of what he told me, and may not be accurate or how the Malaysians operate ... but it does make some things more understandable... to me at least .. :)
The thing is, during that process, the aircraft went from a secondary RADAR contact squarking a known ICAO address and squawk code to an unknown primary contact. Would that not have been treated as a new contact?
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They always say, dont trust a country beginning in 'I' or ending in 'stan'
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Al can you give us an inventory of what was in the planes hold? (other than passenger suitcases). It might just have been carrying something of huge value.
If not then I am back with Part One -the plane has been stolen and landed somewhere like Somalia . Part Two - it is going to be used in a terrorist attack. That would explain why no group has yet claimed responsibility. It certainly is a well orchestrated plan.
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Interesting theory here: http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68 (http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68)
On the face of it, this sounds feasible, however, it does rely on the SIA flight arriving at the required 'rendezvous' point at the right time. Such information could have been established by listening out on an appropriate frequency, and if that is a particularly busy route, it may have been possible to take a chance, and 'latch on' to any appropriate A/C. :-\
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Recently off the phone to an ex-RAF mate who was a UK Air Defence Radar guy .. it seems I may be wrong in my comments above ....
Apparently, due to the high number of aircraft that an Air Defence radar has to track .. ie every single plane in the sky in the region, a methodology has been developed whereby the radar signature can be annotated with one of 3 designations .. "F" - known friendly - "H" - known hostile - "U" - unclassified. An aircraft with an "F" designation will not be tracked with any high degree of interest .. the Air Defence job is the "H's" and "U's"
So, how does an aircraft get an "F" designation ... basically either from its flight plan, or later attached by an operator. MH370 departed from Malaysian airspace on time, on a pre-planned, approved flight planned route... it would therefore be marked as "F".
Unless, and until, an operator changes that designation it will remain, there is no automatic change. The "turn back" would not be questioned as, from a Military Air Defence viewpoint, it is still friendly, and the re-route could be for any, Civil, Air Traffic reason. ....
That's my understanding of what he told me, and may not be accurate or how the Malaysians operate ... but it does make some things more understandable... to me at least .. :)
The thing is, during that process, the aircraft went from a secondary RADAR contact squarking a known ICAO address and squawk code to an unknown primary contact. Would that not have been treated as a new contact?
Apparently not, Air Defence radars do not rely on Secondary Radar as they don't expect a "hostile" to be nice and squawk conveniently. All Primary Radar based with computer aided tracking
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Apparently not, Air Defence radars do not rely on Secondary Radar as they don't expect a "hostile" to be nice and squawk conveniently. All Primary Radar based with computer aided tracking
Fair enough. I suppose once a friend = always a friend was a reasonable assumption to make - until 9/11, at any rate.
I wonder how closely you need to "shadow" a friendly aircraft before your return disappears?
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How about this theory: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/
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How about this theory: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/
IMHO it falls down simply as the Emergency Locator Transmitter, which is designed to activate either by high "G" or sea water immersion has not been activated. This unit is totally independent, requires no power supply, and has a very low failure rate. The transmissions are on several search and rescue frequencies, including the satellite S&R system .. if the ELT had activated it would have been found ... in the event of a fire/crash the ELT would (?) /should have activated
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Apparently not, Air Defence radars do not rely on Secondary Radar as they don't expect a "hostile" to be nice and squawk conveniently. All Primary Radar based with computer aided tracking
Fair enough. I suppose once a friend = always a friend was a reasonable assumption to make - until 9/11, at any rate.
I wonder how closely you need to "shadow" a friendly aircraft before your return disappears?
Probably within 500m, positioning is then critical to avoid wake turbulence... slightly above and behind is probably most comfortable/easiest as the 'lead' aircraft is then lit from above by moonlight, so easier to spot.
Interesting theory here: http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68 (http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68)
On the face of it, this sounds feasible, however, it does rely on the SIA flight arriving at the required 'rendezvous' point at the right time. Such information could have been established by listening out on an appropriate frequency, and if that is a particularly busy route, it may have been possible to take a chance, and 'latch on' to any appropriate A/C. :-\
Off the top of my head, there are at least six aircraft from that part of the world heading to Heathrow alone at that time of day, probably a further two flights each to Frankfurt, Paris, Zurich, Amsterdam and Madrid/Lisbon...
Al can you give us an inventory of what was in the planes hold? (other than passenger suitcases). It might just have been carrying something of huge value.
If not then I am back with Part One -the plane has been stolen and landed somewhere like Somalia . Part Two - it is going to be used in a terrorist attack. That would explain why no group has yet claimed responsibility. It certainly is a well orchestrated plan.
It's possible that it was carrying high value goods, but beyond luggage and post, the odd painting/ming vase doesn't warrant the lengths that have obviously been taken...
It was almost certainly landed in Pakistan, as sections of the government there are known Al Qaeda sympathisers.
From there, central and northern Africa are obvious hidey holes, with extremist tendencies. Although a project of that nature would be best kept close to home.
With a fresh electronic identity, it could be flown anywhere using legitimate flight plans, so once it moves, it will be via somewhere, possibly Sudan or Libya to refuel and then anywhere...
UN building in New York, World Cup opening ceremony, The Hague, Lundun and The White House/Pentagon are all pretty obvious targets :-\
Making the plane disappear is the easy bit... will it be the only one? The only way to prevent it from moving eliminate the threat is to ground every single aircraft between Europe and the Far East, actually now it's past 10days, globally.
The threat isn't the disappearance of one aircraft, it's what happens next...
As I asked earlier, that's the question that noone dare ask...
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They always say, dont trust a country beginning in 'I' or ending in 'stan'
Does that include Ireland and Ingland :P
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How about this theory: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/
The reference to SR111 is interesting, but misses out one minor detail...
There were nearly 11 minutes of conversation between the flightdeck and ATC at St Johns. This I linked to on page 2 or 3 iirc :y
Secondly, putting the plane in a dive to extinguish a fire is a bit like using water on a chip pan fire. It will go anywhere but out.
Hopefully the plane will turn up in the Indian Ocean, as the alternative is far, far worse...
And however horrific that possibility might be, it doesn't make it improbable, else we've learnt nothing from 9/11 :'(
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Probably within 500m, positioning is then critical to avoid wake turbulence... slightly above and behind is probably most comfortable/easiest as the 'lead' aircraft is then lit from above by moonlight, so easier to spot.
I guess it depends on the primary radar returns from the 2 aircraft not being resolvable as individual returns. Wavelength is 30cm, so we are going to be talking many wavelengths between aircraft. 500m is 1.6uS of signal flight time (granted that the signal path difference will be less than that, depending on the alignment of aircraft with RADAR station). Any relative movement between hulls would give you doppler shift, which a decent RADAR would probably detect. Easily resolvable, I would think. I wonder if it would really be possible to evade a RADAR this way? We are talking about air defence RADAR here, of countries such as India, who have decent military resources and the need to be employing them effectively, given their neighbours, of course.
I wonder if even maintaining 500m would be possible, at night, and MACH .8something in the thin air at cruising altitude. As a glider pilot, sitting behind aircraft (on a smaller scale!) is not an unknown domain, and wake turbulence will throw you all over the place if you're not accurately positioned. As you say, above (or below) slipstream and behind would be favourites, and well away from the wingtip vortices.
A guy on PPRUNE was saying he's done it in a military context (moving fighters under cover of a tanker aircraft), and he it required him to be sat literally under the wing of the tanker. :o
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They always say, dont trust a country beginning in 'I' or ending in 'stan'
You mean iStan.
Ive just invented a new word :D, unless your name is Stan of course. :(
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They always say, dont trust a country beginning in 'I' or ending in 'stan'
Does that include Ireland and Ingland :P
Lol, its the basic rules of export licensing......and Ireland did used to have some restricitions........
But yes, Iran, India, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan yada yada yada.....all difficult to send certain things to
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How about this theory: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/
The reference to SR111 is interesting, but misses out one minor detail...
There were nearly 11 minutes of conversation between the flightdeck and ATC at St Johns. This I linked to on page 2 or 3 iirc :y
Secondly, putting the plane in a dive to extinguish a fire is a bit like using water on a chip pan fire. It will go anywhere but out.
Hopefully the plane will turn up in the Indian Ocean, as the alternative is far, far worse...
And however horrific that possibility might be, it doesn't make it improbable, else we've learnt nothing from 9/11 :'(
IIRC the Swissair crew (2 pilots, no F/E on MD11's!) spent time isolating busbars in accordance with the drills, but could possibly have put it on the ground much sooner. As a consequence, our emergency drills were changed subsequent to the Swissair MD11 crash, and the first immediate action with a fuselage or electrical fire became 'land ASAP', although it was already SOP for the pilot non-flying (PNF) and the F/E to carry out the Emergency drill, while the PF headed for the nearest suitable landing strip. So much easier to deal with emergencies with 3 crew. :-X
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How about this theory: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/
The reference to SR111 is interesting, but misses out one minor detail...
There were nearly 11 minutes of conversation between the flightdeck and ATC at St Johns. This I linked to on page 2 or 3 iirc :y
Secondly, putting the plane in a dive to extinguish a fire is a bit like using water on a chip pan fire. It will go anywhere but out.
Hopefully the plane will turn up in the Indian Ocean, as the alternative is far, far worse...
And however horrific that possibility might be, it doesn't make it improbable, else we've learnt nothing from 9/11 :'(
IIRC the Swissair crew (2 pilots, no F/E on MD11's!) spent time isolating busbars in accordance with the drills, but could possibly have put it on the ground much sooner. As a consequence, our emergency drills were changed subsequent to the Swissair MD11 crash, and the first immediate action with a fuselage or electrical fire became 'land ASAP', although it was already SOP for the pilot non-flying (PNF) and the F/E to carry out the Emergency drill, while the PF headed for the nearest suitable landing strip. So much easier to deal with emergencies with 3 crew. :-X
The old rule of "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" ... still very valid after all these years ......
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The plane has been spotted!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ286Fpq7Fs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ286Fpq7Fs)
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SR111 was over land at the initial PanPan call, but was diverted back out to sea in order to dump fuel (and lose altitude)...
Had ATC actually been informed of the fire, rather than the ambiguous 'smoke in the cockpit', things might have played out differently... as it was no one could have suspected fire retardent insulation to be so combustible ::)
The net result would have likely been the same though :'(
However, in the case of MH370, they had enough time to climb to 45,000, then dive to 23,000, change course twice and fly two hundred miles without so much as an 'Oh cock!'... :-\
That I don't buy :-\
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SR111 was over land at the initial PanPan call, but was diverted back out to sea in order to dump fuel (and lose altitude)...
Had ATC actually been informed of the fire, rather than the ambiguous 'smoke in the cockpit', things might have played out differently... as it was no one could have suspected fire retardent insulation to be so combustible ::)
The net result would have likely been the same though :'(
However, in the case of MH370, they had enough time to climb to 45,000, then dive to 23,000, change course twice and fly two hundred miles without so much as an 'Oh cock!'... :-\
That I don't buy :-\
yup .. those actions make no sense... from an emergency handling POV .. but if you wanted to incapacitate your passengers, and you had a separate, independent, oxygen supply you KNEW you could rely on for 20 minutes or so .. then after about 12 minutes all your passengers are unconscious (or worse) ... the only "working" solution is a deliberate act in order to "hijack" (?) the aircraft .. the big questions are ..
Who - crew or others ??
Where - ??
Why - ??
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Who... crew is a given, especially in view of the discovery of simulators in both of their homes. Either for cash or cause
Where... can only guess, based on the Why.
Why... No warning/Big Announcement/note/crash site... only leaves sinister and disturbing as options :-\ Neither bodes well.
Had it been some sort of stupid prank, then you could expect postcards from various places... remember that gnome a few years back?
Only a matter of time before it turns up somewhere, and I guarantee it won't be in the Indian Ocean :'(
Only a matter of time before all Transatlantic flights are forced to transit through Terciera Lajes AFB in the Azores.
Anything outside not routed through there would be liable to be shot down. Another possibility could be enforced stop overs of 24 hours for a transiting passengers, with secure airport accomodation and enhanced security screening between flights :-\
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Could a 777 really climb to 45k that early on in the cruise, or at all?
More likely an artifact of the report being from primary RADAR, right at the extent of its' range, IMHO. Or it climbed, stalled, and recovered at 23k.
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What determines the operational ceiling? Is it the engines, the airframe or the passengers?
Guess physically it would be the engines :-\
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What determines the operational ceiling? Is it the engines, the airframe or the passengers?
Guess physically it would be the engines :-\
Combination of Weight against lift available from the wings against thrust available from engines. Both lift and thrust drop off in thinner air until it'll climb no more.
I'm guessing the FBW system might not even let you try...
Service ceiling of the B777 is 43100 ft, but that would probably be at the lighter end of the cruise.
From a point of view of incapacitating your passengers, 37000 feet is as good as 45000 feet, though. You've already got the majority of the breathable atmosphere well below you by then, so it's a matter of seconds in either case. If oxygen masks deploy, they work on the basis that you'll descend in the event of a cabin depressurisation. Breathing pure oxygen at 37000 feet isn't enough to keep you conscious for long, and certainly not if you're going to mount a useful resistance to a hijacker as opposed to just remaining conscious.
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What determines the operational ceiling? Is it the engines, the airframe or the passengers?
Guess physically it would be the engines :-\
Lift, thrust, and indicated airspeed: Lift and thrust where you can't climb any higher or if you get high enough where IAS decreases with altitude until it reaches the stall speed, so you stall, but you have plenty of altitude to recover.
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What determines the operational ceiling? Is it the engines, the airframe or the passengers?
Guess physically it would be the engines :-\
Lift, thrust, and indicated airspeed: Lift and thrust where you can't climb any higher or if you get high enough where IAS decreases with altitude until it reaches the stall speed, so you stall, but you have plenty of altitude to recover.
Unless you're driving an Airbus and haven't twigged that your instruments aren't functioning correctly :-X
From what Entwood was saying over curry, climbing the aircraft and manipulating the cabin pressure is a pretty effective method of subduing the passengers... cabin crew training would kick in, so they might react to mask deployment more readily than sleeping passengers :-\
Although whether they would do anything against the flight crew or not, I couldn't say :-\ unlikey I suspect...
Another issue with this is whether or not the valves on the cabin emergency oxygen system can be controlled remotely :-\ they must have valves for bottle changing purposes, but could there be an emergency override... imagine a cabin fire coinciding with mask deployment. Filling the cabin with oxygen would be devastating.
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Where they are claiming it climbed to 45,000ft the service ceiling is 43,100ft. I suspect even getting to this sort of altitude would take sometime, where the rate of climb will be very slow as it approaches its service ceiling.
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Where they are claiming it climbed to 45,000ft the service ceiling is 43,100ft. I suspect even getting to this sort of altitude would take sometime, where the rate of climb will be very slow as it approaches its service ceiling.
A radar contact, known to be inaccurate for altitude, showed it at 45000'
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Where they are claiming it climbed to 45,000ft the service ceiling is 43,100ft. I suspect even getting to this sort of altitude would take sometime, where the rate of climb will be very slow as it approaches its service ceiling.
Remember that the "service ceiling" is the height to which the aircraft can climb and STILL MAINTAIN A (REDUCED) CRUISE SPEED.... if you "trade" speed for height it is extremely easy to exceed the service ceiling ... you just have very little forward airspeed, even at the service ceiling (by definition) the aircraft has a rate of climb. (if the grey cells are still working its 100 ft/min, "cruise ceiling" is defined as 300 ft/min capability)
The "absolute ceiling" is the height, (for weight and temperature) that with max power set and holding the speed known as the Minimum Control Speed, the aircraft reaches and has zero rate of climb. The Vmin (Velocity Minimum Control) is higher than the Vstall (Velocity Stall) as, again by definition, at Vstall you have effectively lost control of the aircraft.
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If the autopilot was set, with say a 500ft/min climb rate, whilst the crew set about switching various systems off, then would the flight management computer not simply maintain that climb rate until the airspeed dropped to a predetermined level :-\ Which would presumably be a higher speed than the stall speed... afterall, the program engineers at Bo(e)ing wouldn't install system parameters which endangered the aircraft :-\
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Watching the news just now, Malaysian cops physically ejecting family members who wanted to talk to the media out of a press conference. Shocking scenes.
Why aren't they allowed to speak to the media? What are the authorities hiding??
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Not a surprise tbh...
They have lost 240 people and several million dollars worth of aircraft, haven't the faintest idea where it actually is, and there is SFA that they can do about it :-\
Had they come clean about that a week or so ago, then who knows...
I truly sympathise with the plight of the families, and of the Authorities, but there is very little information being released simply because there is very little information.
It is likely that the passengers are dead rather than holed up somewhere :'(
The frightening thing in this whole conundrum is that no one seems to be even remotely aware of the elephant in the corner. The sooner that that reality is faced, the more likely they are to recover the aircraft and hopefully put the passengers to rest properly...
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If the autopilot was set, with say a 500ft/min climb rate, whilst the crew set about switching various systems off, then would the flight management computer not simply maintain that climb rate until the airspeed dropped to a predetermined level :-\ Which would presumably be a higher speed than the stall speed... afterall, the program engineers at Bo(e)ing wouldn't install system parameters which endangered the aircraft :-\
Don't know the parameters of the 777 autopilot .. but on the old-tech Herc we would set a speed and the autopilot would (attempt) to hold that .. if the power was greater than that required to maintain speed, the aircraft would climb, if less it would descend, so climbing technique for max height was simply set climb power and bug in min climb speed ... the aircraft would continue to try and climb whilst maintaining the speed - and once at "max" height it would then actually still climb VERY slowly as the weight reduced due to fuel burn if you did nowt about it. Normal technique was to reach the required height then bug in that height and set the power to maintain target speed.
We had no "auto throttle" so were not able to bug both a height and a speed like the posh new stuff can with their auto-throttles .. :(
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Not a surprise tbh...
They have lost 240 people and several million dollars worth of aircraft, haven't the faintest idea where it actually is, and there is SFA that they can do about it :-\
Had they come clean about that a week or so ago, then who knows...
I truly sympathise with the plight of the families, and of the Authorities, but there is very little information being released simply because there is very little information.
It is likely that the passengers are dead rather than holed up somewhere :'(
The frightening thing in this whole conundrum is that no one seems to be even remotely aware of the elephant in the corner. The sooner that that reality is faced, the more likely they are to recover the aircraft and hopefully put the passengers to rest properly...
I don't believe that is the case for one minute. The military authorities will know where the plane is and will have spy grade satellite coverage/drone coverage. They will be drawing up plans on how to take it down once it is armed and takes off for its target. (all assuming my theory it has been taken by Al qua'eda types to create max disruption (which it has), to alter forever the parameters of International flight).
What is farsical if that scenario is true is how much energy is being expended by many countries looking for wreckage and delivering meaningless holding statements because as you rightly say "there is very little information". But what else can they do?
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Varche, do you seriously believe that they're burning all that fuel when they 'know' where it is...
Truth is they don't have a scooby, so are raking everywhere from Madagascar to Midway in the faint hope it crashed somewhere with the vain hope that someone survived :-\
You and I are in agreement about what/why. Publically the Authorities can't seem to stomach that reality. On their heads be it...
They need to quit dicking around and start getting serious IMHO :-\
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You may be right but lets say the Americans know it is holed up on an airfield in Afghanistan, Somalia, Pakistan being refurbed, rebadged and kitted out with a nuclear bomb, right now the American priority is not disclosing that, gathering Intel and (hopefully) making a plan to stop it once it takes off again.
sadly the public element i.e. the wasted effort looking for a crashed plane is necessary to avoid blowing the cover of knowing where it is.
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You may be right but lets say the Americans know it is holed up on an airfield in Afghanistan, Somalia, Pakistan being refurbed, rebadged and kitted out with a nuclear bomb, right now the American priority is not disclosing that, gathering Intel and (hopefully) making a plan to stop it once it takes off again.
I reckon that if the Americans knew Al Quaeda had nukes they'd have glassed the middle east and every sympathetic country by now.. rather than keeping quiet about it.
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Ooops...
http://news.uk.msn.com/world/t-articles?cp-documentid=260032102
::)
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Debris update iminant on sky news.
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Inmarsat are now saying one of their Sat Networks was receiving 'Pings' from the Plane up to 5 hours after it went missing. :-\
Turns out Inmarsat told the Malaysian Authorities about the Planes Pings being picked up just 3 days after it went missing now, and informed them about the possibilities of the North and South routes around the Indian Ocean.
So much so, and being slightly confused why the Authorities where still pissing around in the China Sea for days after that looking for clues, Inmarsat have now gone Public with this information and are now asking the question why the Southern part of there findings where not being searched last week, rather than being concentrated on, only in the last day or so. :-\
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Did any of the passengers have an iPad? Can't they just do the 'Find my iPad' thingy?
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Did any of the passengers have an iPad? Can't they just do the 'Find my iPad' thingy?
Only works on contact with the internet.
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Did any of the passengers have an iPad? Can't they just do the 'Find my iPad' thingy?
Only works on contact with the internet.
And currently, most airlines still insist on Airplane/Aeroplane mode, disabling internet.
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Did any of the passengers have an iPad? Can't they just do the 'Find my iPad' thingy?
Electrickery requires a signal and someone to use it... after two weeks, it's unlikely to have either :'(
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Did any of the passengers have an iPad? Can't they just do the 'Find my iPad' thingy?
Electrickery requires a signal and someone to use it... after two weeks, it's unlikely to have either :'(
I was slightly tongue-in-cheek there, Al. ::)
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Did any of the passengers have an iPad? Can't they just do the 'Find my iPad' thingy?
Electrickery requires a signal and someone to use it... after two weeks, it's unlikely to have either :'(
I was slightly tongue-in-cheek there, Al. ::)
Oh yes ::) do excuse me, I've just got up...
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Did any of the passengers have an iPad? Can't they just do the 'Find my iPad' thingy?
Electrickery requires a signal and someone to use it... after two weeks, it's unlikely to have either :'(
I was slightly tongue-in-cheek there, Al. ::)
Oh yes ::) do excuse me, I've just got up...
Lazy b......... ;D
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I shall be returning from work at about 4 on Saturday morning, so all in all, it's not unreasonable :P
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Having seen the two 'different' Australian photos, the only difference between them is the annotations regarding the size. They are otherwise identical...
I think Senor Varche might be onto summat :-\
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I bought a new mobile phone, set it "aeroplane mode". Haven't seen it for twelve days now.
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I see Malaysian Airlines have admitted that the missing aircraft was carrying Li-on batteries in the cargo hold. These have been known to catch fire on flights and if so, the fire could have disabled the comms equipment before filling the aircraft with toxic fumes. :(
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I see Malaysian Airlines have admitted that the missing aircraft was carrying Li-on batteries in the cargo hold. These have been known to catch fire on flights and if so, the fire could have disabled the comms equipment before filling the aircraft with toxic fumes. :(
Wouldn't "disable" the ability to see wreckage, or the ELT, or the fact that the crew have access to oxygen, for purely such an event, and would have made a "mayday" call in that scenario ... :(
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I bought a new mobile phone, set it "aeroplane mode". Haven't seen it for twelve days now.
Shouldn't laugh but ... Lol :D
Total mystery, and the plot thickens :-\
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At least todays picture is different ::)
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Incidentally... does anyone know which part of a 777 measures 70'x40', because I am struggling to think of one :-\
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Yeah there's a part of the fuselage that big. In aviation parlance I believe its referred to as a red herring. ...or is that a Naval term...?
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Yeah there's a part of the fuselage that big. In aviation parlance I believe its referred to as a red herring. ...or is that a Naval term...?
Something to do with Hunting, Dogs from memory, putting the scent off the real Trail.
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Ooh, conspiracy ...?
Conspiracy implies a level of competence to organise it. Not in this case, I don't fink.
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Yeah there's a part of the fuselage that big. In aviation parlance I believe its referred to as a red herring. ...or is that a Naval term...?
The only bit that size is the wing root/central fuselage... but that would be a swept cross shape not a rectangle... the wings are barely 20' front to back, and are by definition, er, wing shaped ::)
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Ooh, conspiracy ...?
Conspiracy implies a level of competence to organise it. Not in this case, I don't fink.
The only competence here is from the people who nicked the plane ::) everyone else is pissing into the wind...
It's a total comedy of errors from the instant it failed to make contact with Vietnamese ATC...
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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/24/missing-plane-mh370_n_5020948.html?1395669409&utm_hp_ref=uk
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/24/missing-plane-mh370_n_5020019.html?utm_hp_ref=uk
From the second article
The Australian Prime Minister has announced that more “objects” have been located in the search for Flight MH370.
Tony Abbott said multiple further objects have been found in the Indian Ocean search area.
The Australian military ship HMAS Success is the only vessel currently within the search area.
The vessel will attempt to retrieve the two objects within the next few hours.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/24/missing-plane-mh370_n_5020948.html?1395669409&utm_hp_ref=uk
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/24/missing-plane-mh370_n_5020019.html?utm_hp_ref=uk
From the second article
The Australian Prime Minister has announced that more “objects” have been located in the search for Flight MH370.
Tony Abbott said multiple further objects have been found in the Indian Ocean search area.
The Australian military ship HMAS Success is the only vessel currently within the search area.
The vessel will attempt to retrieve the two objects within the next few hours.
Yep, lastest News says it FLEW into the Indian Ocean :(
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A shame that the BBC News pundit kept referring to the "Indonesian" Prime Minister and the "Indonesian" aircraft... ::)
Unless there's a lesser known missing plane doing the rounds?! :o
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26716572 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26716572)
So, AAIB and Inmarsat have confirmed that it went South by doing a bit more analysis on the satellite data. I wonder whose spy satellite provided the additional information they needed to come to that conclusion? :-X
But, it tallies with the wreckage. I guess all the indications are that it went into the Indian ocean with 100% loss of life. :(
For what reason, it remains to be seen.
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Assuming that it did crash in the Indian Ocean, will they bother looking for the black boxes :-\
Could/should shipping in the area have picked up the signal from them...
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Assuming that it did crash in the Indian Ocean, will they bother looking for the black boxes :-\
Could/should shipping in the area have picked up the signal from them...
My understanding is that the black box emits an acoustic signal.
Some ships use acoustic setups for static positioning and manouvering, these utilise a deployable transceiver which is dropped out the bottom side of the hull via a valve and deployment machine.
However, when in transit, they are not deployed (and cant be dragged along on the underside at transit speeds).
So no, I see no reason why a vessel would detect such a signal
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That makes sense Mark, just wondered out of curiosity :y
Declaring it 'lost' after two weeks of chasing ghosts around southern Asia is a slightly moot point though ::) unless summat was lost in translation... 'After sixteen days since the as yet unexplained disappearance of MH370, we can only conclude that the aircraft has crashed with no survivors.'
...reads better than a text saying ' Yup, we've lost it' :-\
Hopefully the families will finally find some closure...
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From the scant information I have been able to get from old contacts .... the "reason" the aircraft has now been declared "crashed" rather than "missing" by the Malaysians - who are still lead on the search - is that the latest analysis by Inmarsat and the UKAAIB shows that the aircraft was in that area at the time it "would" have run out of fuel, from all the information available..... :(
I would hazard a guess that the USA, UK, Chinese and Russians will all have some hunter/killer nuclear subs in the area all with some VERY sophisticated electronic sensor arrays ..... and anything found will be fed back by some tortuous route .... even so .. it is a HUGE volume of sea to search .... :(
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So a reasonably informed guess in effect :-\
I suppose the CIA are still staying schtum... ::)
That's to say, if it didn't crash halfway between Perth and Port London, then they know where it is...
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So a reasonably informed guess in effect :-\
.. but certain enough to give the bereaved some closure.
It stopped talking to sats at about the time it would have run out of fuel, and the satellite data says that was 1500 miles off Perth, which is about the location at which it would have run out of fuel. Wreckage has also been found there.
It's in the middle of nowhere, so knowing it was flying there without fuel is enough to say that all souls on board are lost.
Undoubtedly there are going to be questions for some time, but at least the relatives can start grieving reasonably safe in the knowledge that there was a disaster and the plane went down with all on board.
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So a reasonably informed guess in effect :-\
.. but certain enough to give the bereaved some closure.
It stopped talking to sats at about the time it would have run out of fuel, and the satellite data says that was 1500 miles off Perth, which is about the location at which it would have run out of fuel. Wreckage has also been found there.
It's in the middle of nowhere, so knowing it was flying there without fuel is enough to say that all souls on board are lost.
Undoubtedly there are going to be questions for some time, but at least the relatives can start grieving reasonably safe in the knowledge that there was a disaster and the plane went down with all on board.
Amen to that :'(
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From the scant information I have been able to get from old contacts .... the "reason" the aircraft has now been declared "crashed" rather than "missing" by the Malaysians - who are still lead on the search - is that the latest analysis by Inmarsat and the UKAAIB shows that the aircraft was in that area at the time it "would" have run out of fuel, from all the information available..... :(
I would hazard a guess that the USA, UK, Chinese and Russians will all have some hunter/killer nuclear subs in the area all with some VERY sophisticated electronic sensor arrays ..... and anything found will be fed back by some tortuous route .... even so .. it is a HUGE volume of sea to search .... :(
Apparently, they have had to develop new analysis methods using the Doppler effect to extract from the aircraft transmissions to satellite(s), to pinpoint the aircraft's position. Whether the Doppler effect meant analysis from a single satellite or multiple satellites and triangulation we may or may not hear about I would guess, depending upon any potential military uses.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26720772 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26720772)
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From the scant information I have been able to get from old contacts .... the "reason" the aircraft has now been declared "crashed" rather than "missing" by the Malaysians - who are still lead on the search - is that the latest analysis by Inmarsat and the UKAAIB shows that the aircraft was in that area at the time it "would" have run out of fuel, from all the information available..... :(
I would hazard a guess that the USA, UK, Chinese and Russians will all have some hunter/killer nuclear subs in the area all with some VERY sophisticated electronic sensor arrays ..... and anything found will be fed back by some tortuous route .... even so .. it is a HUGE volume of sea to search .... :(
Apparently, they have had to develop new analysis methods using the Doppler effect to extract from the aircraft transmissions to satellite(s), to pinpoint the aircraft's position. Whether the Doppler effect meant analysis from a single satellite or multiple satellites and triangulation we may or may not hear about I would guess, depending upon any potential military uses.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26720772 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26720772)
One of my contacts, who is a highly qualified (ex nimrod) AEO, says they have also used a new technique that involves analysing the signals from KNOWN sources .. ie other aircraft that they know the actual flightpath of .. and applying the information obtained from the signal behaviour of those aircraft to the signal obtained from MH370 .. something that has never been done, or even thought about, before. He reckons they've done 3 years worth of R&D in 3 weeks !! .. but he could be over-egging it a tad ... he always told a good story - but all his stories were actually based on fact, his contribution was the only thing exaggerated .... :)
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From the scant information I have been able to get from old contacts .... the "reason" the aircraft has now been declared "crashed" rather than "missing" by the Malaysians - who are still lead on the search - is that the latest analysis by Inmarsat and the UKAAIB shows that the aircraft was in that area at the time it "would" have run out of fuel, from all the information available..... :(
I would hazard a guess that the USA, UK, Chinese and Russians will all have some hunter/killer nuclear subs in the area all with some VERY sophisticated electronic sensor arrays ..... and anything found will be fed back by some tortuous route .... even so .. it is a HUGE volume of sea to search .... :(
Apparently, they have had to develop new analysis methods using the Doppler effect to extract from the aircraft transmissions to satellite(s), to pinpoint the aircraft's position. Whether the Doppler effect meant analysis from a single satellite or multiple satellites and triangulation we may or may not hear about I would guess, depending upon any potential military uses.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26720772 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26720772)
It's a TDMA connection between aircraft and satellite, so timing and frequency errors would be compensated for by the signalling protocols and, fortunately, I guess the resulting corrections were logged. The doppler shift would have represented a complex combination of the satellite and aircraft movement, along with errors in the frequency reference at either end of the link so it must have taken some time to figure out a way to use that, possibly testing unproven theories on other aircraft flying in the area to confirm accuracy.
It is, of course, possible that other data from classified sources contributed, and that the AAIB and Inmarsat have cooperated to provide a front through which data so derived could be released without revealing the real source!
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But I`m sure I read somewhere that MH370 passed over islands in the Indian ocean at tree top height to dodge below the radars. ???
Now we learn from Inmarsat Quote,"As far as the engineers could tell, the plane was flying at a cruising height above 30,000ft, but its final position could not be pinpointed more clearly", says BBC transport correspondent Richard Westcott.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26716572 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26716572)
So, AAIB and Inmarsat have confirmed that it went South by doing a bit more analysis on the satellite data. I wonder whose spy satellite provided the additional information they needed to come to that conclusion? :-X
But, it tallies with the wreckage. I guess all the indications are that it went into the Indian ocean with 100% loss of life. :(
For what reason, it remains to be seen.
Funny you should say that Kevin, exactly my thoughts. As of the last report I heard today, they have still not identified - or, as far as I know, recovered - any debris spotted, and yet the Malaysian authorities felt able to state unequivocally that the A/C went down in that area. While I am no expert, I would have thought that, however clever the Inmarsat scientists were in calculating the track, and full credit to them for that, it still seems brave to make such a statement based on this sole evidence, with no piece of debris yet identified. I'm inclined to think that other evidence is available to back this up, of which we have not heard. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-X
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so the australians along are flying around over the sea along with other countries looking for this plane..
was just wondering. Do they do it for free :-\
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so the australians along are flying around over the sea along with other countries looking for this plane..
was just wondering. Do they do it for free :-\
Ordinarily all Search & Rescue operations are done from the countries own budget .. ie .. not charged for ... often put down under "operational training" ... main reason being .. everyone wants to be sure that in the event of one of their own aircraft going missing then everyone else will help... the minute someone "charged" for S&R then that system would disintegrate and a "poor" country" would get no help if something happened ... :(
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I would think that it's a safe bet to say that the plane is lost ... possibly with all people on board dead :(
They are pretty much certain of this but I hope for all the families, they are proved wrong!
Malaysian Remote Sensing Agency (M.R.S.A), Bet they didn't think that one through ::)
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so the australians along are flying around over the sea along with other countries looking for this plane..
was just wondering. Do they do it for free :-\
Ordinarily all Search & Rescue operations are done from the countries own budget .. ie .. not charged for ... often put down under "operational training" ... main reason being .. everyone wants to be sure that in the event of one of their own aircraft going missing then everyone else will help... the minute someone "charged" for S&R then that system would disintegrate and a "poor" country" would get no help if something happened ... :(
That said, when Abby Sunderland found herself dismasted and (well out of her depth) in that area (about 2000 miles wsw of Perth), she sent out to epirb signals... one automatic, and one manual, so they knew she was alive. The family had to charter a Qantas A330 as it was the only aircraft that had a meaningful range to go looking... at a cost to the Australian government of $10,000 per hour.
They found her and were able to give a definite location, which enabled a French trawler, the nearest vessel at the time, to go and fetch her. Subsequently the French tried to change international law to enable charging for the rescue of anyone knowingly and recklessly endangering themselves ::)
Does rather beg the question of why send out much smaller/slower aircraft with a much lower range to go looking for less time on each sortie... makes them look like their trying really hard, without actually achieving anything :-\
Might only have taken a day or two rather than ten, still counting, to find MH370. Apparent window dressing doesn't help to silence the conspiracy theorists :-X
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Which reminds me... Where's the US carrier group that is/was based in the Indian Ocean ::)
A single carrier group would have the search and rescue capacity equal to that of a modest country...
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Which reminds me... Where's the US carrier group that is/was based in the Indian Ocean ::)
A single carrier group would have the search and rescue capacity equal to that of a modest country...
that group is somewhere near a country called Russia at the moment, don't why they heading that way?
there's gonaa be a fight/war? :)
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Sorry .. but the last 3 posts show very little understanding of S&R procedures/requirements .. :(
A US carrier has lots of fast jets(fighters) and a few helicopters. fast jets are useless at S&R as they have limited lookout and travel far too fast. Helicopters take way too long to get to any search area to SEARCH, and carry too few crew to do the lookout thing properly ..but are excellent when told exactly where to go for a pickup. An airliner cannot get low enough/slow enough to do lookout either.
The aircraft used ARE capable of doing the job... to do S&R you need to be between 300 & 500 ft above the water .. anything higher and you have 3 problems ... the eye tends to look out too far and try and cover too big an area in the time given, wave motion can easily hide" an object on its lee side, and finally any objects get smaller as height increases, so the chance of missing increases rapidly. It is only possible to concentrate for around 30 minutes, after this time the eyes tend to focus on infinity and you simply won'r "see" an object even if it is there... makes the lookout a tad pointless.... to get round this an S&R aircraft will carry at least twice as many lookouts as needed so that they can be rotated at heir stations and rest their eyes.
Lastly, and probably the most misunderstood aspect of all ... a slow manouverable aircraft is a MUST ... the faster the aircraft goes the WORSE it is .. (ok you all say.. it covers a larger area in the time ... but the above shows it is more likely to miss an object.. but that is not this point) ... lets say that the fast aircraft is lucky and does spot an object .... it has to mark it and then keep sight of it .. no point in using GPS etc as the object is actually moving in the water.. the fast aircraft simply CANNOT turn and keep eyeball contact with the object .. a slow aircraft can.. and does... it is imperative when investigating an object that visual contact is not lost, and the observer "talks" the pilot, crew, cameraman etc etc on to what has been seen.
The C130 Hercules that I flew for 38 years was a good S&R aircraft as it did 90% of the above well, but it took a while to reach the search area due to its, relatively, low cruising speed. The Nimrod (in its day), was even better as it did all the above but got there faster.
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I was actually thinking of the Northrop Grumman E2... rather than F18s etc ::)
The thinking being that whilst the carrier steams towards the search area, the aircraft could be up and looking rather than flying eight hour sorties for only two hours searching :-\
The Americans are being very quite on the whole thing, which strikes me as suspicious.
At the rate the search is going, the debris will be washing up on Australia before the aircraft find anything that the satellites picked up...
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I was actually thinking of the Northrop Grumman E2... rather than F18s etc ::)
The thinking being that whilst the carrier steams towards the search area, the aircraft could be up and looking rather than flying eight hour sorties for only two hours searching :-\
The Americans are being very quite on the whole thing, which strikes me as suspicious.
At the rate the search is going, the debris will be washing up on Australia before the aircraft find anything that the satellites picked up...
urm Americans being quite after a plane goes missing,,,,
did they shoot it down to get rid of an individual, cia,involvement,
quick where's our resident conspiracy consultant (calling cem)
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I was actually thinking of the Northrop Grumman E2... rather than F18s etc ::)
The thinking being that whilst the carrier steams towards the search area, the aircraft could be up and looking rather than flying eight hour sorties for only two hours searching :-\
The Americans are being very quite on the whole thing, which strikes me as suspicious.
At the rate the search is going, the debris will be washing up on Australia before the aircraft find anything that the satellites picked up...
urm Americans being quite after a plane goes missing,,,,
did they shoot it down to get rid of an individual, cia,involvement,
quick where's our resident conspiracy consultant (calling cem)
I have not said anything on this thread yet as I am too cynical at times..........
but, do the Americans, British, Russians, Chine, etc, all have satellites that see everything, including right up to individuals walking around?.......the operators of these satellites do not want everyone else to know how good their systems are, and where they are currently looking..............so they see an airliner turn around and eventually fly into the sea...........do you tell everyone that and so disclose the secrets of your system?.............the 239 people on board are dead............so you risk your national security by publishing quickly what you know to take some of the uncertainty away from the relatives, or you think of the millions within your nation and the potential security advantage you have for the future and say nothing, but chuck out a few statements that you have gleaned from your poor satellite images that four days ago there may have been certain pieces of debris in a certain area........by implication you are only admitting officially, although most other nations know otherwise, that your satellite surveillance systems are only able to see limited amounts and detail on the Earth's surface.......??????? ::) ::)
That is how I see it. :y
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I was actually thinking of the Northrop Grumman E2... rather than F18s etc ::)
The thinking being that whilst the carrier steams towards the search area, the aircraft could be up and looking rather than flying eight hour sorties for only two hours searching :-\
The Americans are being very quite on the whole thing, which strikes me as suspicious.
At the rate the search is going, the debris will be washing up on Australia before the aircraft find anything that the satellites picked up...
urm Americans being quite after a plane goes missing,,,,
did they shoot it down to get rid of an individual, cia,involvement,
quick where's our resident conspiracy consultant (calling cem)
I have not said anything on this thread yet as I am too cynical at times..........
but, do the Americans, British, Russians, Chine, etc, all have satellites that see everything, including right up to individuals walking around?.......the operators of these satellites do not want everyone else to know how good their systems are, and where they are currently looking..............so they see an airliner turn around and eventually fly into the sea...........do you tell everyone that and so disclose the secrets of your system?.............the 239 people on board are dead............so you risk your national security by publishing quickly what you know to take some of the uncertainty away from the relatives, or you think of the millions within your nation and the potential security advantage you have for the future and say nothing, but chuck out a few statements that you have gleaned from your poor satellite images that four days ago there may have been certain pieces of debris in a certain area........by implication you are only admitting officially, although most other nations know otherwise, that your satellite surveillance systems are only able to see limited amounts and detail on the Earth's surface.......??????? ::) ::)
That is how I see it. :y
Lizzie .. a reasonable, but I'm afraid, inaccurate portrayal of the systems ... yes they can spot an individual, yes they can even read a paper, yes they can track an item .... but ONLY when targeted AT that point .. they do NOT scan the whole of the earths surface 24/7 picking up every tiny movement !!
Why would they be tracking an innocuous scheduled airliner ?? ... they wouldn't, so they wouldn't have seen it "turn around and crash into the sea". The reason the pictures we are now getting are 14 days after the event .. is it takes about that time to reposition, then target the satellites, and then analyse the photo's obtained. Given the remoteness of the area concerened .. just WHY would any of the "powers" you mention be watching the area ??? there is normally nothing there to see.. so assets would not be wasted in futile monitoring.
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Unless i am proved wrong....which is highly likely ::)
I still dont believe the aircraft crashed into the sea.... :-\
Why highjack an aircraft and then fly it for another 7 hours until it runs out of fuel??....then crash into the sea...doesnt make sense to me... :-\
My thinking....if you highjack a plane and want to crash it....why wait 7 hours?? (until it runs out fuel) ....just crash it now!......if you want to take out a building/etc....then do that! ....not wait until it runs out of fuel....whats that achieved?? :-\
Also, why turn off the 'tracking' bits and bobs.....if you were just going to crash it....doesnt make sense to me :-\
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Unless i am proved wrong....which is highly likely ::)
I still dont believe the aircraft crashed into the sea.... :-\
Why highjack an aircraft and then fly it for another 7 hours until it runs out of fuel??....then crash into the sea...doesnt make sense to me... :-\
My thinking....if you highjack a plane and want to crash it....why wait 7 hours?? (until it runs out fuel) ....just crash it now!......if you want to take out a building/etc....then do that! ....not wait until it runs out of fuel....whats that achieved?? :-\
Also, why turn off the 'tracking' bits and bobs.....if you were just going to crash it....doesnt make sense to me :-\
IMHO the amount of debris being found, and its position relative to the "best guesses" of Inmarsat/UKAAIB unfortunately strongly point to this being a "debris field" from an impact with the sea caused after the aircraft ran out of fuel.....
Why hijack and then fly until it runs out of fuel ??? Several possibilities for that scenario ... a couple to ponder ....
1) Botched hijack - they got the initial bits done then failed to fly to where they wanted to go ... possibly killed by their own attempts to incapacitate the crew & passengers
2) Elaborate suicide - someone with the mindset of taking their own life and as many others as they could with them - hijack the plane then fly as far as possible into a remote area in the hope that you are never found.
If this is the debris filed then the "political" hijack becomes remote, unless the botched/crew fight back scenario can be proven.
There then comes the technical fault scenario ... an attempt to turn back then crew incapacity leaving the aircraft on autopilot flying a straight line to oblivion - although why no radio calls is odd, but again, improbable theories may well actually be proved correct - eventually .....
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I guess, in the suicide scenario, flying out into the back of beyond to hide the evidence from an insurance company might have been a motivation. :-\
It will be a very interesting investigation when some evidence is found...
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I guess, in the suicide scenario, flying out into the back of beyond to hide the evidence from an insurance company might have been a motivation. :-\
It will be a very interesting investigation when if some evidence is found...
Indeed it will... :-\
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I think the whole thing stinks. Starting with the plane not going into Vietnam airspace and changing direction. Was everyone asleep? Would you now fly Malaysian? I don't normally follow conspiracies but this one demands an answer.
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OK, how about:
The pilots want to steal a valuable cargo of £M Diamonds in transit.
The passengers are neutralised by oxygen deprivation.(the 45,000 feet bit)
The perpetrators find the valuable cargo and their previously secreted parachutes.
Blow the door over the sea.
Set plane on auto pilot on this new course to the wilds of the Southern Indian Ocean
Parachute to waiting accomplices over or near land .
They know that no one will ever retrieve all the bodies
Few bits I don't like with that. How did they smuggle parachutes on board?
Can you get into the hold of an aircraft while it is in flight ? perhaps what they were after was in the cabin as hand luggage?
Can you parachute successfully from a 777 especially if you have set the auto pilot for a faster speed?
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Can you parachute successfully from a 777 especially if you have set the auto pilot for a faster speed?
Define successfully. I'm sure you could "successfully" get most of your body mass out through the door of a 777 flying at MACH 0.8. I suspect it'd end up looking like it'd been through a blender, though. ;)
If you got through that, you'd have to have enough oxygen with you to stay alive, and that wouldn't be trivial to arrange.
As wild theories go, it's not a very plausible one, IMHO, but one of the wild theories will prove to be true in the end. ;)
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OK, how about:
The pilots want to steal a valuable cargo of £M Diamonds in transit.
The passengers are neutralised by oxygen deprivation.(the 45,000 feet bit)
The perpetrators find the valuable cargo and their previously secreted parachutes.
Blow the door over the sea.
Set plane on auto pilot on this new course to the wilds of the Southern Indian Ocean
Parachute to waiting accomplices over or near land .
You've been watching too much 24 ;D
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Actually, I very much doubt a 777 would continue flying at cruising speed and altitude with a missing door.
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Actually, I very much doubt a 777 would continue flying at cruising speed and altitude with a missing door.
It was missing on that harrison ford film air force one. :y
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Can you parachute successfully from a 777 especially if you have set the auto pilot for a faster speed?
Define successfully. I'm sure you could "successfully" get most of your body mass out through the door of a 777 flying at MACH 0.8. I suspect it'd end up looking like it'd been through a blender, though. ;)
If you got through that, you'd have to have enough oxygen with you to stay alive, and that wouldn't be trivial to arrange.
As wild theories go, it's not a very plausible one, IMHO, but one of the wild theories will prove to be true in the end. ;)
The opening scene of the Charlies Angles Film managed it, so it must be true. ;D
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OK, how about:
The pilots want to steal a valuable cargo of £M Diamonds in transit.
The passengers are neutralised by oxygen deprivation.(the 45,000 feet bit)
The perpetrators find the valuable cargo and their previously secreted parachutes.
Blow the door over the sea.
Set plane on auto pilot on this new course to the wilds of the Southern Indian Ocean
Parachute to waiting accomplices over or near land .
You've been watching too much 24 ;D
True and there is another one in the pipeline. Thing is the other theories are all a bit boring ???
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Unless i am proved wrong....which is highly likely ::)
I still dont believe the aircraft crashed into the sea.... :-\
Why highjack an aircraft and then fly it for another 7 hours until it runs out of fuel??....then crash into the sea...doesnt make sense to me... :-\
My thinking....if you highjack a plane and want to crash it....why wait 7 hours?? (until it runs out fuel) ....just crash it now!......if you want to take out a building/etc....then do that! ....not wait until it runs out of fuel....whats that achieved?? :-\
Also, why turn off the 'tracking' bits and bobs.....if you were just going to crash it....doesnt make sense to me :-\
IMHO the amount of debris being found, and its position relative to the "best guesses" of Inmarsat/UKAAIB unfortunately strongly point to this being a "debris field" from an impact with the sea caused after the aircraft ran out of fuel.....
Why hijack and then fly until it runs out of fuel ??? Several possibilities for that scenario ... a couple to ponder ....
1) Botched hijack - they got the initial bits done then failed to fly to where they wanted to go ... possibly killed by their own attempts to incapacitate the crew & passengers
2) Elaborate suicide - someone with the mindset of taking their own life and as many others as they could with them - hijack the plane then fly as far as possible into a remote area in the hope that you are never found.
If this is the debris filed then the "political" hijack becomes remote, unless the botched/crew fight back scenario can be proven.
There then comes the technical fault scenario ... an attempt to turn back then crew incapacity leaving the aircraft on autopilot flying a straight line to oblivion - although why no radio calls is odd, but again, improbable theories may well actually be proved correct - eventually .....
I could believe that theory .....
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Can you parachute successfully from a 777 especially if you have set the auto pilot for a faster speed?
Define successfully. I'm sure you could "successfully" get most of your body mass out through the door of a 777 flying at MACH 0.8. I suspect it'd end up looking like it'd been through a blender, though. ;)
If you got through that, you'd have to have enough oxygen with you to stay alive, and that wouldn't be trivial to arrange.
As wild theories go, it's not a very plausible one, IMHO, but one of the wild theories will prove to be true in the end. ;)
Depends on how sophisticated 'auto pilots' are these days i guess.....can you program autopilots these days.....ie fly at a 1000ft as slowly as poss.....for 15 mins say (allowing time for the hijackers to parachute out.....tho i dont know whether thats possible either)....then climb to 30,000ft after applying lots of power :-\ :-\
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Can you parachute successfully from a 777 especially if you have set the auto pilot for a faster speed?
Define successfully. I'm sure you could "successfully" get most of your body mass out through the door of a 777 flying at MACH 0.8. I suspect it'd end up looking like it'd been through a blender, though. ;)
If you got through that, you'd have to have enough oxygen with you to stay alive, and that wouldn't be trivial to arrange.
As wild theories go, it's not a very plausible one, IMHO, but one of the wild theories will prove to be true in the end. ;)
Depends on how sophisticated 'auto pilots' are these days i guess.....can you program autopilots these days.....ie fly at a 1000ft as slowly as poss.....for 15 mins say (allowing time for the hijackers to parachute out.....tho i dont know whether thats possible either)....then climb to 30,000ft after applying lots of power :-\ :-\
Possibly, but an airliner won't fly that slow, even at low level in landing configuration. I still reckon you'd just end up with a nasty stain down the side of the fuselage. ;)
Not to say it hasn't got a nasty stain down the side, of course. ::)
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Hold access depends entirely on the aircraft configuration... but...
Most wide bodied aircraft are loaded with containers rather than loose luggage, so realistically you would need to be an inch wide to navigate around them, and know where what you were after was located. Better chance of reading a paper back whilst scuba diving than pulling that off tbh ::)
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OK, how about:
The pilots want to steal a valuable cargo of £M Diamonds in transit.
The passengers are neutralised by oxygen deprivation.(the 45,000 feet bit)
The perpetrators find the valuable cargo and their previously secreted parachutes.
Blow the door over the sea.
Set plane on auto pilot on this new course to the wilds of the Southern Indian Ocean
Parachute to waiting accomplices over or near land .
They know that no one will ever retrieve all the bodies
Few bits I don't like with that. How did they smuggle parachutes on board?
Can you get into the hold of an aircraft while it is in flight ? perhaps what they were after was in the cabin as hand luggage?
Can you parachute successfully from a 777 especially if you have set the auto pilot for a faster speed?
Or maybe the pilots via the airline passenger manifests see that a courier will be on-board hand carrying a high value shipment.They just need bolt cutters, but bullet-tooth Tony has been hired for the job by franky four fingers CUT TO: MUSIC,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7r2wfzJ4ZU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7r2wfzJ4ZU)
A CLOSE UP OF THE DIAMOND.
Can I call you Tony?
You can call me Susan if it makes you happy.
You got nice teeth Susan. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Media are getting on my wick. Specifically, re the new search area.
"Does this mean (we/they/you) waisted a lot of time searching the wrong area?" Or the like.
Well, given nobody knows where the plane is, that implies we shouldn't look at all, for fear of looking the wrong place.
By definition, looking for something, means looking until something is found. Most of the time that means looking in the wrong place first. In order, by process of elimination, to find the correct place. AAAAAAAH!
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Just like Tbs bike keys... ::)
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Media are getting on my wick. Specifically, re the new search area.
"Does this mean (we/they/you) waisted a lot of time searching the wrong area?" Or the like.
Well, given nobody knows where the plane is, that implies we shouldn't look at all, for fear of looking the wrong place.
By definition, looking for something, means looking until something is found. Most of the time that means looking in the wrong place first. In order, by process of elimination, to find the correct place. AAAAAAAH!
Yeah, retards. Why don't they just look where the plane is? ::)
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What I don't understand is, why when you're looking for something do you always find it (assuming you do find it) in the last place you look? :D
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What I don't understand is, why when you're looking for something do you always find it (assuming you do find it) in the last place you look? :D
Easy answer to that one.....look in the last place first.....you'll find it straight away then :y ;D
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Just like Tbs bike keys... ::)
I'll have you know I can see one from here. No bike to put it in though.
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What I don't understand is, why when you're looking for something do you always find it (assuming you do find it) in the last place you look? :D
why would you keep looking after you find it? ;D
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Just like Tbs bike keys... ::)
I'll have you know I can see one from here. No bike to put it in though.
Thought you lost the bike keys ages ago,did you find them before you lost the bike ??? :-X
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Well, judging by todays efforts, by the end of next week, the Indian Ocean will be clean enough to drink, and the price of scrap plastic will plummet to worthless ::)
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Is this it :-\
http://news.sky.com/story/1237620/missing-plane-ship-detects-signal-in-ocean
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Is this it :-\
http://news.sky.com/story/1237620/missing-plane-ship-detects-signal-in-ocean
Best chance so far I should think if nowt else is on that frequency.
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Er, is this latest lead based on a post on twitter?
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There was me believing that a hunter killer sub could detect a rowing boat leaving New York Harbour and determine the language the occupants were speaking without leaving base.
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There was me believing that a hunter killer sub could detect a rowing boat leaving New York Harbour and determine the language the occupants were speaking without leaving base.
They can, but it's easier to lip read from the same post code :y
Er, is this latest lead based on a post on twitter?
Basically, the plane, wherever it is, no longer has it's black boxes fitted, and it has taken the thick end of three weeks to get some Philipino fishermen to drop them undetected in the sea somewhere vaguely convincing ::)
See what happens when the results of Afghanistans election come to light...
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Anyone else think that the Chinese effort doesn't quite add up?
They are searching acoustically in yet another "new" area with what looks like 100 yens worth of kit from Maplins dangled out of the side of an inflatable on a mill pond. What are they really using?
When they have hundreds of ships and at least one sub trawling the area just who will be co ordinating the effort to avoid duplication and crashes etc.?
I wonder if mischevious dolphins or whales can imitate sounds?
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Anyone else think that the Chinese effort doesn't quite add up?
They are searching acoustically in yet another "new" area with what looks like 100 yens worth of kit from Maplins dangled out of the side of an inflatable on a mill pond. What are they really using?
When they have hundreds of ships and at least one sub trawling the area just who will be co ordinating the effort to avoid duplication and crashes etc.?
I wonder if mischevious dolphins or whales can imitate sounds?
They may have the advantage that they know where they dumped the wreckage and black box...
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Don't forget...they are inscrutable, what ever that means ;D
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Don't forget...they are inscrutable, what ever that means ;D
Constipated. You can tell from their expression. ;D ;D
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Don't forget...they are inscrutable, what ever that means ;D
Constipated. You can tell from their expression. ;D ;D
;D
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Don't forget...they are inscrutable, what ever that means ;D
Constipated. You can tell from their expression. ;D ;D
I'm desperately jealous ;D
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Looks like they have found the pings from a black box :-\ Best lead so far :(
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Looks like they have found the pings from a black box :-\ Best lead so far :(
Only if they're still attached to the plane ::)
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Latest on BBC is that they have two pings at the same time which is encouraging,ie both boxes :y
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4 weeks should have given them enough time to drag the wreckage to the right place, play about with recorders, and drop them somewhere convenient
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4 weeks should have given them enough time to drag the wreckage to the right place, play about with recorders, and drop them somewhere convenient
Probably find them floating in a battered cool box on the surface ::)
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Here's a good conspiracy that popped up on facebook. :) I thought I'd share and contribute to the seam of cynicism that's running through this thread! :-X ::)
UNREPORTED FACTS REGARDING Flight MH370 and the United States Military Base Diego Garcia:
* Diego Garcia is a US Military island base in the Indian Ocean
* Since MH370 has disappeared, Diego Garcia has never been mentioned to the public
* Diego Garcia has a fully operational runway and Airport
* Diego Garcia is 2,142 miles from Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia)
* The island was leased by Britain in 1966. It is due for renewal in 2014
* Diego Garcia flight co-ordinates were logged into the renown Pilot's Flight Plan Simulator
* The pilot's flight simulator has 'remote take-over' capabilities
* The data from the pilot's flight simulator has now been erased
* Flight MH370 was under 'suspicious cargo' surveillance by the GRU (Russian Main Intelligence)
* 20 of the passengers work for a company which specializes in futuristic warfare and technology
* Australian Military Radar Base: The Jindalee Operational Radar Network has the capabilities of detecting movements within a radius of 37,000km
* Malaysian authorities have pleaded with the US and Australia to release to them information from their top secret radar bases in Australia
* Island residents of the Maldives (647 miles north of Diego Garcia) reported seeing a huge low flying aircraft heading SOUTH which is the direction of Diego Garcia at 6.15am the morning after it 'disappeared' from radar
* The time of departure from Kuala Lumpur to the time of the plane's sighting is accurate
* The National Maldives Defence Force dismissed these eye witness accounts on the premise of no radar detection
* It is public knowledge that flight MH370 was not detectable, or had lost signal to radar
* Almost every member of the public had no idea there was an island in the Indian Ocean housing a US Military base and Airport before the above post was shared
* Diego Garcia has been completely dismissed from the International search, and completely dismissed from public investigative speculation
It must be true!! ;D ;D ;D
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I had forgotten about that place... easier than faffing around with Pakistan etc, especially if they're certain it went south :-\
Rather changes the who and why though :-\
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The CIA kidnapping the 20 employees of the company that specialises in futuristic warfare technology? ???
Maybe they were working for the Chinese government and the US government thought 'We not having that!' ::)
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Nice theory BUT could you keep a whole base leak free???
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Nice theory BUT could you keep a whole base leak free???
Land the plane before breakfast and straight into a quarantined hanger... Not that far fetched, and the Yanks haven't exactly been at the forefront of the search ::)
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Nice theory BUT could you keep a whole base leak free???
A remote speck in the middle of the Indian Ocean. Yes probably. ;)
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Back on topic, this graphic really highlights the problem:
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/the-depth-of-the-problem/931/ (http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/the-depth-of-the-problem/931/)
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Back on topic, this graphic really highlights the problem:
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/the-depth-of-the-problem/931/ (http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/the-depth-of-the-problem/931/)
Nice find, makes looking fora needle in a haystack relative easy.
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Back on topic, this graphic really highlights the problem:
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/the-depth-of-the-problem/931/ (http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/the-depth-of-the-problem/931/)
That's a bit deep for me... :-\
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Convenient ::)
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50 million spent, the worlds best military and civilian equipment and what have they got? Nothing, Nada. Diddly Squat. My suspicion is that we won't find out until the US archives are opened up in 100 years time (assuming they are that soon). I would bet good money that IF the black boxes are recovered that mysteriously the data won't be readable i.e. it was corrupted when it was dropped in the water.
So just what was in the hold?
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It is indeed mind boggling that a satellite can see you in your garden but can't see an aeroplane, or flotsam.
Logically an aluminium tube full of plastic, foam, life jackets ETC, all of which h float, as indeed do gas filled bodies, should be visible.
So it is either aliens or it is hidden intact somewhere for whatever reason.
Personally I feel for the family and friends of the crew and passengers. :(
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It is indeed mind boggling that a satellite can see you in your garden but can't see an aeroplane, or flotsam.
Logically an aluminium tube full of plastic, foam, life jackets ETC, all of which h float, as indeed do gas filled bodies, should be visible.
So it is either aliens or it is hidden intact somewhere for whatever reason.
Personally I feel for the family and friends of the crew and passengers. :(
That's my thoughts too........... :( :(
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It is indeed mind boggling that a satellite can see you in your garden but can't see an aeroplane, or flotsam.
Logically an aluminium tube full of plastic, foam, life jackets ETC, all of which h float, as indeed do gas filled bodies, should be visible.
So it is either aliens or it is hidden intact somewhere for whatever reason.
Personally I feel for the family and friends of the crew and passengers. :(
I suppose it depends at what speed it hit the water whether there are gas filled bodies or just bits and pieces of human remains :'(
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Hitting water from any altitude would be like smashing into concrete and the break up of the plane, unless of course it was a controlled landing like the one in the Hudson river. In either case I would expect items to float especially the life vests, if we assume the plane just landed on water and eventually sank surely something would float to the surface ( basic physics).
This defies any logical explanation, considering modern technology where tracking phones can be done with ease never mind a 707 so what happened?
It will eventually come out in the wash, and not being a conspiracy theorist ( Cem over to you ;D) I can't think of any solution to the mystery.
Again I can only empathise with the loved ones of those on board. :(
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It is indeed mind boggling that a satellite can see you in your garden but can't see an aeroplane, or flotsam.
Logically an aluminium tube full of plastic, foam, life jackets ETC, all of which h float, as indeed do gas filled bodies, should be visible.
So it is either aliens or it is hidden intact somewhere for whatever reason.
Personally I feel for the family and friends of the crew and passengers. :(
That is a bit like saying you can see bacteria with a microscope, so why can't you use one to find your car in a car park. ;)
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I read that the ozzies have found the location of possibly the black box but aren't saying anything until they know for sure ... maybe finally there will be some answers as to what happened for the poor families waiting to hear of their loved ones fate :-\
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Well they have found something here
http://news.sky.com/story/1247611/missing-plane-material-washes-ashore-in-oz