Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Mister Rog on 31 May 2016, 19:35:29
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This evening there was a "Political Broadcast" for the Vote Out lot.
I'm not making any representations here for or against either "in" or "Out", but this advert was so incomprehensible that I would say that it probably convinced more people to vote "In". What is it with publicity people that they feel that being " creative" or whatever achieves some real purpose. Barmy ???
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Haven't had chance to watch yet but as an outer i do find it strange that UKIP and Farage with the most MEPs and passion are being kept very quiet,all very strange its a few Conservatives against the rest.Perhaps its all a farce as the outers are Conservatives using the UKIP line,we could be being conned!
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Just remember, if the majority to leave is not large, enough 'dave' will make it so we stay in by far or foul, this is his making a name for him self in history, so be ready, for a 're-count' and the majority isn't large enough etc-etc, the powers will decide not the public.
Remember 'dave' is in charge not Boris yet!
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Haven't had chance to watch yet but as an outer i do find it strange that UKIP and Farage with the most MEPs and passion are being kept very quiet,all very strange its a few Conservatives against the rest.Perhaps its all a farce as the outers are Conservatives using the UKIP line,we could be being conned!
Consider this then...
The MEPs don't get a say... this is a constitutional issue for the United Kingdom, not Brussels... and on that note, they have very few MPs, so proportionately speaking, they are very poorly represented ;)
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To be honest, it's just the absurd advert I was commenting on.
Started off being a kind of lottery type spoof advert and then went on. Who thinks this cr&p up ???
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young marketing kids straight out of uni?
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Im Beginning to think there is no "Leave campaign" If there is its a poor show there putting on.
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they should let people make up their own minds :y :y :y
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young marketing kids straight out of uni?
Very likely
More interested in some obscure "message" than fact
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I personally am for leaving, however, that completely aside, the 'leave' broadcast was a complete joke. Tugging on the heart strings about 'we could build a new hospital every week witht hat money' blah blah. Yes, it's a stupid amount of money (though something like 0.3% of the UK's GDP I think) but on the other hand you could argue we should have one less RAF Typhoon... or sack 1/3 of the Navy, etc.. It's no more valid an argument than 'if we kicked out all the gingers that would reduce stress on the NHS by 10%' or whatever.
We spend a shedload of cash on things I don't personally agree with, or like, but that isn't the same as we shouldn't do it. I don't personally like Opera or Musicals, but that doesnt mean all the Operahouses / Theatres should be sold to raise money for building more Car Museums (then again.... ::) :D)
I didn't get a single fact from that broadcast.
However - and now returning to my being 'pro-leave' - it does seem like if we go, it's not this golden ticket of free hospital beds, jobs and free boiled sweeties for all; it would require the British people, en masse, to work, and try. And frankly, we're a nation of importers, now. We want to import our labour, our cars, our clothes, our scheisse-shovellers. We just can't be bothered, but moan about them foreigners taking our jobs....jobs we don't want to to. And that's sad. So very sad.
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Agreed,bed made....now bloody lie in it ::)
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It does feel a bit like a campaign for moving the Houses of Parliament 6ft to the left. It's there, and frankly, any attempt to change will inevitably cost a shedload, and with potential for very little advantage for doing so.
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We know that the headline £360m a week is complete 'dangle berries', and more like a quarter of that.
On the flip side, how much do British businesses make by being in euroland?
If those British business were not making that extra by being in the EU, we'd be spending a shit load more covering the loss in taxes and the higher unemployment.
Given that we'll most likely be financially worse off (both personally and as a nation, though the 2 are loosely linked anyway), the immigration argument is invalid (as it makes no difference whether we are in or out), and this £360m per week is poppycock, it seems that Leave are running out of options.
So I think my mind is now made up :)
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If the leve group can guarantee that the figure they are quoting gets put into hospitals (and staff), armed forces and frontline services then it would be a viable argument. But as it wouldn't be that much (in fact it would be a net loss) or used in that way, then it's pointless.
TBH, neither argument has been overly convincing and has just skirted around the headlines!
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TBH, neither argument has been overly convincing and has just skirted around the headlines!
I wonder how much has been properly said, compared to the drivel the media forward on to us.
But in my heart of hearts, we know the politicians are going for soundbite politics as it proved successful for New Labour, rather than saying anything remotely useful.
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On a personal basis..we really don't care what happens as we are in a good place,no mortgage, zero debts,and although interest rates are low,we are getting a reasonable return on our savings, plus our two private pensions etc.So in a way we are set for whatever happens,but let's remember what has happened in the past 40+years and if people can't remember or in many cases they haven't a clue because they aren't old enough to remember,then do your own research before you make that crucial decision and DO NOT! put your trust in the politicians and the so called business leaders as they are proven liars and in some cases even worse! Simples ::)
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We know that the headline £360m a week is complete 'dangle berries', and more like a quarter of that.
Our net contribution to the EU is actually just under a half of the headline gross figure of £360m a week at £161 a week. Technically, the £360m a week is correct, as it represents the full amount Britain would have been liable for in 2014, if we didn't have the rebate and would have been the amount Britain paid. ;) The reality going by the Treasury figures in the BBC article below is that we actually paid £276m a week. :)
If we vote to remain, I wonder how long the rebate will survive as we are the only country in the EU to have such an arrangement. Good old Maggie! :y
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35943216
If the leve group can guarantee that the figure they are quoting gets put into hospitals (and staff), armed forces and frontline services then it would be a viable argument. But as it wouldn't be that much (in fact it would be a net loss) or used in that way, then it's pointless.
The Leave campaign can't make any guarantees on any policies. That will be up to the Government of the day to sort out. All they should say is "We could do this or we could do that...." :)
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Its not principally about economics. Its about regaining our sovereignty and returning to being a democratic, self governing nation.
However, Ive listened to the economic arguments on both sides and I don't see any economic benefits to remaining. The stories which claim we are, assume that our trade with EU countries will be seriously adversely affected by leaving. Economic / business reality tells me that aint so, for pretty obvious reasons.
We will also be free to do business with the rest of the world from a very strong position indeed, for the first time in over 40 years, which holds the realistic promise of a much brighter future.
Don't forget that most of the people / organisations who are predicting doom & gloom if we leave were saying exactly the same thing about us refusing to join the Euro.
Almost all of them also have a vested interest, often due to EU grants / funding.
This system of grants and funding is the much vaunted rebate that the Remainians shout about. Its true the EU does send back a percentage of the monay we pay them, but the crucial thing is that they decide how it is spent.
That's why many of the businesses, organisations, universities, art farty showbiz types et. are now preaching the gospel of the EU.
The EU is a basket case, and its likely that it will implode before long. If we are still shckled to it, it will cause ur very serious damage when it does.
Remember how it stole money from depositors accounts on Cyprus ? The next wave of fincial meltdown could bring that upon us.
It is a political project, which tries to make the markets and economics fit its agenda. That will never ever work. It will end in tears.
We should get out before we are the ones who are crying.
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We know that the headline £360m a week is complete 'dangle berries', and more like a quarter of that.
We hand over £17.8bn per annum (2015), which equates to around £342m a week, but rebates reduce the total to £12.9 billion. That’s around £200 for every person in the UK. For context, that is more than the annual budget of the Home Office, which spends about £9 billion a year. It’s around a tenth of the budget for the NHS in England. It’s also enough to reduce the basic rate of income tax by 3p in the pound. £12.9 billion is around £35 million a day (x7 = 265m per week.
Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12176663/EU-Facts-how-much-does-Britain-pay-to-the-EU-budget.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12176663/EU-Facts-how-much-does-Britain-pay-to-the-EU-budget.html)
On the flip side, how much do British businesses make by being in euroland?
If those British business were not making that extra by being in the EU, we'd be spending a shit load more covering the loss in taxes and the higher unemployment.
With respect, that's a spurious argument, since no sensible person has suggested that trade with the EU will cease, were we to leave the EU. Indeed, WTO agreements mean that we will continue to trade as we do now. Furthermore, we are a net importer from the EU (£20.9bn imports vs. £19.6bn exports in march 2016), so no country will stop business with us, even if they could.
Given that we'll most likely be financially worse off (both personally and as a nation, though the 2 are loosely linked anyway), the immigration argument is invalid (as it makes no difference whether we are in or out), and this £360m per week is poppycock, it seems that Leave are running out of options.
There's no reason to expect that we will be worse off (see above). The immigration argument is NOT invalid since, after Brexit, we would be able to restrict immigration to only those whose skills we require. Which means that we would not be flooded by people to whom we would need to provided housing, education, health services and social security benefits, but without much in return. Our infrastructure is creaking now. If we remain, it will become untenable.
We should also note that we are likely to lose our zero-rate VAT on food, children's clothes and medicine if we stay in.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12126569/EU-VAT-review-could-end-Britains-exemption-on-food-medicine-and-childrens-clothing.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12126569/EU-VAT-review-could-end-Britains-exemption-on-food-medicine-and-childrens-clothing.html)
We should also note that we have been ordered by the EU to raise the current 5% VAT on insulation materials to 20%.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d0a675e6-0adb-11e5-98d3-00144feabdc0.html (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d0a675e6-0adb-11e5-98d3-00144feabdc0.html)
We should also note today's EU ruling on insurance VAT, which is likely to increase premiums.
http://www.businessinsurance.com/article/20160317... (http://www.businessinsurance.com/article/20160317...)
Face up to facts, this our chance to get back control over our borders and taxation!
We simply should not continue in a club over which we have no control. In 20 years, Britain has voted 72 times against European Council - and have been defeated 72 times. >:( >:(
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I agree, and I believe that 'we ain't see nothing yet' as so far that we do not have a strong enough leadership to stand up to the Euro bullies, and that due to our governments mismanagement of the relationship with Europe we will be just be setting ourselves for more of the same....so be it, and those people that vote to stay will be partly responsible for the demise of this country as we know it.......things like an even crappier NHS,more exploitation of all workers,overcrowded schools,housing shortages,roads crammed to capacity etc, the list is endless and let's face it those signs are already there....but believe what you will,because if the 'stay' supporters think they will be protected from the above,then I think they should get a check up from the neck up. Vote out...most people I know are going to do just that,these are the sort of people have never been asked in a BBC poll or any other poll what they think, and surprisingly they represent a broad spectrum of age groups.....Hmm :-\
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With respect, that's a spurious argument, since no sensible person has suggested that trade with the EU will cease, were we to leave the EU. Indeed, WTO agreements mean that we will continue to trade as we do now. Furthermore, we are a net importer from the EU (£20.9bn imports vs. £19.6bn exports in march 2016), so no country will stop business with us, even if they could.
Clearly trade will not cease. That's ridiculous. Trade *WILL* reduce as the price of trading will increase, both on the taxation and on the overheads in dealing with exportation. That will make both our goods uncompetitive, and goods we wish to buy more expensive.
Yes, its possible that we may be able to make some trading alliances, but the overheads for businesses dealing with different processes and tax rules for each country will not be insignificant.
Leaving will have an impact on our manufacturing in the short term.
That is all pretty much certain.
As to the borders argument, we are not part of the free movement, thus we can control our borders (legally, if useless at doing it physically). So that's an invalid argument for both sides, as there is no change whatever happens.
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Trade *WILL* reduce as the price of trading will increase, both on the taxation and on the overheads in dealing with exportation. That will make both our goods uncompetitive, and goods we wish to buy more expensive.
Yes, its possible that we may be able to make some trading alliances, but the overheads for businesses dealing with different processes and tax rules for each country will not be insignificant.
Leaving will have an impact on our manufacturing in the short term.
That is all pretty much certain.
It will take at least two years for Brexit to be implemented, so there''s plenty of time to introduce trade agreements with anyone. Besides which, if all the rest of the EU stay together, then how can they have different processes and tax rules, as they will be harmonised?
As to the borders argument, we are not part of the free movement, thus we can control our borders (legally, if useless at doing it physically). So that's an invalid argument for both sides, as there is no change whatever happens.
No it isn't invalid, because although we're not in the Schengen Area, anyone with an EU passport is permitted to live and work in the UK... That would not be the case after Brexit. :y
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We hand over £17.8bn per annum (2015), which equates to around £342m a week, but rebates reduce the total to £12.9 billion. That’s around £200 for every person in the UK.
Not correct as the rebate is deducted at source, not refunded as is commonly believed. ;)
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Not correct as the rebate is deducted at source, not refunded as is commonly believed. ;)
Hair-splitting, but agreed. ;)
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Not correct as the rebate is deducted at source, not refunded as is commonly believed. ;)
Hair-splitting, but agreed. ;)
It makes about £4.4 billion* difference, so hardly hairsplitting! ;D
As said earlier, I doubt we have the rebate for much longer anyway as it has to be renegotiated every few years and the agreement of all the other EU countries is required. ::) If we stay, I fully expect at least one country (probably France) to exercise their veto, forcing us to pay the full subs! :(
*This was 2014's rebate, 2015's rebate was £4.9 billion.
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If a "leave" supporter could kindly explain just one tiny point to me I would be appreciative ... (I'll then ask another, and another and another on similar points) ....
If we take a simple subject like UK meat "exports" to the EU (technically they are not exports as we are, at present, part of the EU so can readily sell our produce in the EU without most restrictions), "IF" we leave the EU then we will be only able to "export" meat to EU countries under the terms published here ...
http://www.imta-uk.org/import-export/importing/countries-approved-to-export-to-the-eu
Now, the proposals, as I understand them, is that the EU will give us "special" permissions to "bypass" those rules, or they will instantly "approve" all our present facilities as "acceptable"....
My questions are:
1) Just why would France, who tried for years to prevent Beef from UK being sold in France, suddenly agree to bend all the rules?? and as ALL 27 countries would need to agree, or it doesn't happen.
2) Germany, Belgium and Poland got extremely upset at UK proposed legislation on animal welfare regarding Veal Crates, and tried very hard to bypass it, as they believe it cost them a lot of money (who cares about the animals ?), just why would these countries support any "special" treaties with UK over meat exports??
3) Eastern European EU members have been complaining that access to Western Europe poultry markets is dominated by UK/France/Germany and have been asking for fairer distribution in order to increase their exports, just why would they agree to give UK "easy" access to a marketplace they want to expand into ??
So, 3 questions purely on meat ... the same logic can be used on all manner of goods ..... from vegetables to cars, in fact on any item that is also made in another EU country ... WHY would that country give us "special" rights to compete against them when they can protect and even increase, their market share ??
The "leave" campaign have not yet explained to me just "why" ......
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If anyone STILL thinks we should remain, please take a few minutes to watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psLJ0lECmSw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psLJ0lECmSw)
And remember, this is an Irish MEP who is expected to vote on the measures. :o :o
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1) Just why would France, who tried for years to prevent Beef from UK being sold in France, suddenly agree to bend all the rules?? and as ALL 27 countries would need to agree, or it doesn't happen.
2) Germany, Belgium and Poland got extremely upset at UK proposed legislation on animal welfare regarding Veal Crates, and tried very hard to bypass it, as they believe it cost them a lot of money (who cares about the animals ?), just why would these countries support any "special" treaties with UK over meat exports??
3) Eastern European EU members have been complaining that access to Western Europe poultry markets is dominated by UK/France/Germany and have been asking for fairer distribution in order to increase their exports, just why would they agree to give UK "easy" access to a marketplace they want to expand into ??
Look, for Germany (for example), the UK is its third largest trading partner. I am sure we're near the top of the list in the case of France and Belgium, too. There's no way they are going to mess about with us, since their commercial interests are too great. Business and the market place will rule, as they always haves done (even before the wretched EU).
Besides which, it's not just about trade, it's about sovereignty too. You want us to be dragged into a European Army? And what about TTIP?
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1) Just why would France, who tried for years to prevent Beef from UK being sold in France, suddenly agree to bend all the rules?? and as ALL 27 countries would need to agree, or it doesn't happen.
2) Germany, Belgium and Poland got extremely upset at UK proposed legislation on animal welfare regarding Veal Crates, and tried very hard to bypass it, as they believe it cost them a lot of money (who cares about the animals ?), just why would these countries support any "special" treaties with UK over meat exports??
3) Eastern European EU members have been complaining that access to Western Europe poultry markets is dominated by UK/France/Germany and have been asking for fairer distribution in order to increase their exports, just why would they agree to give UK "easy" access to a marketplace they want to expand into ??
Look, for Germany (for example), the UK is its third largest trading partner. I am sure we're near the top of the list in the case of France and Belgium, too. There's no way they are going to mess about with us, since their commercial interests are too great. Business and the market place will rule, as they always haves done (even before the wretched EU).
Besides which, it's not just about trade, it's about sovereignty too. You want us to be dragged into a European Army? And what about TTIP?
That is not really an answer to any of my points, it is more an expression of hope ...... I was after something just a little more concrete .....
and IMHO, TTIP is a "non-argument" as the chances of it actually happening are remote... it must happen before Obama leaves as both Trump and Clinton are against it, and that timescale is just too fast for it to go through, given the opposition of France and Germany
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That is not really an answer to any of my points, it is more an expression of hope ...... I was after something just a little more concrete .....
And there can be no concrete answer — not from the Leave side, nor the Remain side. These are uncharted waters, so looking for a definitive answer is practically impossible. The Remain side "hope and believe" that we can continue with business as usual (I doubt it), whilst the Leave side "hope and believe" that our long-term future will be brighter outside the EU.
No one can give a definitive answer about how Europe will look a couple of years down the line. NO one can give a definitive answer as regards the actions of other European countries. We can only surmise with the evidence as we see it.
I am not hopeful about the long-term future of the EU and see civil unrest, if not war, breaking out. I do not want my children to be a part of that, so I'm voting out. :y
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That is not really an answer to any of my points, it is more an expression of hope ...... I was after something just a little more concrete .....
And there can be no concrete answer — not from the Leave side, nor the Remain side. These are uncharted waters, so looking for a definitive answer is practically impossible. The Remain side "hope and believe" that we can continue with business as usual (I doubt it), whilst the Leave side "hope and believe" that our long-term future will be brighter outside the EU.
No one can give a definitive answer about how Europe will look a couple of years down the line. NO one can give a definitive answer as regards the actions of other European countries. We can only surmise with the evidence as we see it.
I am not hopeful about the long-term future of the EU and see civil unrest, if not war, breaking out. I do not want my children to be a part of that, so I'm voting out. :y
I question the validity of that statement....
The rules of the EU are known and published, and require all members to agree to change them, as a member we are a part of that group and can influence change, that is the present position. Some changes have been agreed, although not as many as might be wished.
From the outside we would have no say and could be dictated to by those within. Why would the 27 give any credence to a country that has left ?
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If anyone STILL thinks we should remain, please take a few minutes to watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psLJ0lECmSw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psLJ0lECmSw)
And remember, this is an Irish MEP who is expected to vote on the measures. :o :o
Democracy in action. ::)
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"There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries. On such a full sea are we now afloat. And we must take the current when it serves, or lose our ventures"
Will Shakespeare, my hero
BUT . . . . . . was he right ?
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as a member we are a part of that group and can influence change, that is the present position.
In 20 years, Britain has voted 72 times against European Council - and has been defeated 72 times. Britain funds 9.9pc of the EU budget and wields 1/28th of the power!
The bottom line is that the EU is an undemocratic bureaucracy. Did we, in the UK, vote for Juncker, Tusk or Schulz? Can we vote them out of we don't like their performance? The answer to both is 'No'. Thus, it is not a democracy
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Why would the 27 give any credence to a country that has left ?
They won't! ;D
There will be no free or favourable trade deal with the EU as all 27 members will have different needs and wants. :( Pretty much the reason why the EU takes years if not decades to negotiate and conclude trade deals. By contrast Australia and the USA negotiated and implemented a trade deal in 2 years! ;)
Brexit would hurt the Irish though. Next time you're in Tesco's check out how much of the meat comes from Ireland and it's generally cheaper than British meat too. ::)
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9 hours and 15 minutes in the back of an ambulance outside A&E...a great example of how this country is being run...and who's going to trust that utter pratt Camermoron and his bunch of yes men to negotiate a better deal with the EU. I guess it's the sheep amongst us that will believe any thing that's put in front of them..including the mint sauce :)
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I expect the vote result to be 'remain'... but, crucially, much like the recent Scottish referendum, this should hopefully serve to put the cat among the pigeons, and ideally let the rest of the EU see we're not happy bunnies.
I personally don't understand how being part of an 'on-paper' member's only club means we can trade more freely. Half of everything we buy is made in China, and they're not in the EU. It's very clever economics which I don't understand.
The Commonwealth was, is and should be ours. And that was/is something that should be nurtured and made wonderful. If we had half a brain post '45 we'd have thousands of factories in Africa, making decent, mass-produced goods, competing with far-eastern imports (with decent working conditions which we could control, unlike the sweatshops we've all been supporting via Primark for decades) With some better management, India would still be ours, and not own our steel industry (for now). The largest empire the world has ever seen was supposed to sit as an overseer for mainland united Europe, but crucially separate after the Second World War.... not get dragged in with it.
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The rest of the EU doesn't give a monkeys left gonad what we think ::)
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Best argument so far:
On the Remain side: Eddie Izzard, Vivienne Westwod
On the Leave side: Sir David Jason, Sir Ian Botham
The Leaves have it!! ;D ;D
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An even better reason to Vote Leave just popped up:
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/02/former-commie-ec-commissioner-calls-people-log-onto-youtube-national-electronic-id/ (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/02/former-commie-ec-commissioner-calls-people-log-onto-youtube-national-electronic-id/)
:o :o
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There will be no free or favourable trade deal with the EU as all 27 members will have different needs and wants.
And anyone who thinks that individual countries will be bending over to allow us to export our goods into them, when it ultimately damages their own manufacturing/services/farming, without trying to add their own cut on top is probably having a nice pleasant dream.
And our own government, be that Mr Corbyn, Mr Cameron, Boris the Great or God Farage, will be doing likewise, taxing imports "encouraging to buy British", making goods more expensive.
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There will be no free or favourable trade deal with the EU as all 27 members will have different needs and wants.
And anyone who thinks that individual countries will be bending over to allow us to export our goods into them, when it ultimately damages their own manufacturing/services/farming, without trying to add their own cut on top is probably having a nice pleasant dream.
Consider this conversation:
British trade delegation: we would like to discuss favourable trade deals with you.
Any EU government: what was wrong with the ones you had, that your countrymen voted against in the referendum last week?
BTD: Errrrrrrrr
Any EU government: We'll add you to the list. Now I've an important conference with the ambassador of Wheretheoppsonthemapisit? about importing Spitting Image rubber chickens. Whatever they are.
BTD: But.......
Any EU government: Bye. See you in about 9 years when you're nearer the front of the queue.
I'm not a fan of the EU by any means; it needs some drastic surgery done with an axe. But for the Leave campaigners to be convincing, they need to have a vision of what they're hoping to achieve and a workable plan to do it. Not the "Don't worry about it, we won't all starve to death in the dark" that we're presented with.
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There will be no free or favourable trade deal with the EU as all 27 members will have different needs and wants.
And anyone who thinks that individual countries will be bending over to allow us to export our goods into them, when it ultimately damages their own manufacturing/services/farming, without trying to add their own cut on top is probably having a nice pleasant dream.
Consider this conversation:
British trade delegation: we would like to discuss favourable trade deals with you.
Any EU government: what was wrong with the ones you had, that your countrymen voted against in the referendum last week?
BTD: Errrrrrrrr
Any EU government: We'll add you to the list. Now I've an important conference with the ambassador of Wheretheoppsonthemapisit? about importing Spitting Image rubber chickens. Whatever they are.
BTD: But.......
Any EU government: Bye. See you in about 9 years when you're nearer the front of the queue.
I'm not a fan of the EU by any means; it needs some drastic surgery done with an axe. But for the Leave campaigners to be convincing, they need to have a vision of what they're hoping to achieve and a workable plan to do it. Not the "Don't worry about it, we won't all starve to death in the dark" that we're presented with.
Sorry, but that's simply wrong.
We have a large trade deficit with the EU – meaning that they export more to us than we export to them. Do you really think they would stop exporting to us???? And, if they carry on exporting to us – which clearly they would, then we would carry on exporting to them. Trade is two-way!!! ::) ::) ::)
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Sorry, but that's simply wrong.
We have a large trade deficit with the EU – meaning that they export more to us than we export to them. Do you really think they would stop exporting to us???? And, if they carry on exporting to us – which clearly they would, then we would carry on exporting to them. Trade is two-way!!! ::) ::) ::)
I think that's wishful thinking, and its constant wishful, overly ambitious thinking that the Leave campaign is now trying to present as fact.
The shareprice of our manufacturers, service providers, and other exporters clearly show that every time a positive Leave poll is announced, the investers dump stock. Which is hardly surprising when virtually every economist with a track record is saying the same thing.
Rule No 1: Look after your own voters first. That means giving your own industries an advantage.
Even if pigs started to fly and governments decided not levy taxes (dream on), I can tell you from the mindess, pointless training I've had too endure, exporting to non EU markets is a huge overhead, and does push up costs. If your biggest market is no longer open, free trade... ...well, anyone can see...
To get trade agreements in place, large payments (lets call them foreign aid payments) will be needed to bribe sweeten the deal... ...I wonder where that will come from? The bottomless pit of money the government has? Same dream ;)
And it wouldn't be a single deal with EU countries, it would be 27 separate deals, each with their own restrictions, costs, procedures and rules. Each would have to be separately negotiated, and you think we'll come out the winner in most cases? We'll get bogged down in sub-deals, payments, disputes between other countries which will damage our ability to trade with those where we've sided with another country... ...you get the picture.
I am actually still undecided, but the Leave need to start showing some realistic facts. I'm currently concerned we may leave for the wrong reasons, such as a "I don't like Cameron" or "I love Farage, what he says is Gospel", rather than what is best for the UK.
A lot of pro leave comments here and elsewhere is naïve 'dangle berries' with no grounding in reality
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There will be no free or favourable trade deal with the EU as all 27 members will have different needs and wants.
And anyone who thinks that individual countries will be bending over to allow us to export our goods into them, when it ultimately damages their own manufacturing/services/farming, without trying to add their own cut on top is probably having a nice pleasant dream.
Consider this conversation:
British trade delegation: we would like to discuss favourable trade deals with you.
Any EU government: what was wrong with the ones you had, that your countrymen voted against in the referendum last week?
BTD: Errrrrrrrr
Any EU government: We'll add you to the list. Now I've an important conference with the ambassador of Wheretheoppsonthemapisit? about importing Spitting Image rubber chickens. Whatever they are.
BTD: But.......
Any EU government: Bye. See you in about 9 years when you're nearer the front of the queue.
I'm not a fan of the EU by any means; it needs some drastic surgery done with an axe. But for the Leave campaigners to be convincing, they need to have a vision of what they're hoping to achieve and a workable plan to do it. Not the "Don't worry about it, we won't all starve to death in the dark" that we're presented with.
Sorry, but that's simply wrong.
We have a large trade deficit with the EU – meaning that they export more to us than we export to them. Do you really think they would stop exporting to us? ??? And, if they carry on exporting to us – which clearly they would, then we would carry on exporting to them. Trade is two-way!!! ::) ::) ::)
Thank you for that, I'd always understood a deficit to be a bad thing!
I've just looked up the definition, and the dictionary gives three; all of them are something you should actively strive to avoid.
Also, the EU doesn't trade with us; the member states do using numerous favourable treaties. Once we've slammed the door on those, they won't be coming back. National pride, and politicians(ours and theirs) propensity to cut off their noses to spite their faces will see to that.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the multi-nationals take one look at the figures and hassle, do some back of the envelope calculations, head down to the shop floor, turn off the power, lock the doors and leave for the continent.
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Sorry, but that's simply wrong.
We have a large trade deficit with the EU – meaning that they export more to us than we export to them. Do you really think they would stop exporting to us???? And, if they carry on exporting to us – which clearly they would, then we would carry on exporting to them. Trade is two-way!!! ::) ::) ::)
Even if pigs started to fly and governments decided not levy taxes (dream on), I can tell you from the mindess, pointless training I've had too endure, exporting to non EU markets is a huge overhead, and does push up costs. If your biggest market is no longer open, free trade... ...well, anyone can see...
The EU is not our biggest market – it's roughly on a par with the rest of the world. Non-EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.9 billion, while EU Exports were £12.0 billion.
To get trade agreements in place, large payments (lets call them foreign aid payments) will be needed to bribe sweeten the deal... ...I wonder where that will come from? The bottomless pit of money the government has? Same dream ;)
After 50 years, the EU still does not have a free trade deal in place with a single top 10 economy! And yet it still trades!
...it wouldn't be a single deal with EU countries, it would be 27 separate deals...
No it wouldn't!! If the EU remains in place, individual EU countries will be unable to conclude individual deals — only Brussels can do that. That's why we cannot conclude a deal with China, without the EU's say-so (yet Norway and Switzerland have signed such deals!). But, is a trade deal that necessary? Why, then, am I sitting on a chair made in China, staring into a screen made in Korea - countries with whom we have no trade deal? Simple. It's business.
Also, the EU's share of the world market is dwindling quite sharply. The emerging economies are more flexible and better at doing business. Why should we be shackled to a trade bloc whose importance is diminishing? We are the fifth largest economy in the world and it's "dangleberries" to think that any country in the world would shun us after Brexit.
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I completely agree with everything you say Migalot. Its good to see someone dealing in facts (Ive checked many of them), rather than urban myth, knee jerk reaction etc.
The Germans sell us lots of cars. Apparently we are their biggest market. They also sell us lots of other stuff too. The French sell us lots of cars, wine cheese etc. The Italians sell us lots of cars, wine, fashion etc......
European economies cannot function without channelling most of their trade through the city of London. Over 90% of financial trades in Europe, take place in the city of London.
Does anyone really think the Europeans are going to risk all that ? Particularily when they are in extremely perilous waters financially, with no clue how to get back to calmer waters.
A punitive trade war with the U.K. could very easily be the straw that breaks the camels back, and puts the whole EU economy over the edge of the cliff.
It just aint going to happen.Its scare mongering, and I'm bemused that apparently intelligent people believe it,
I honestly believe that everyone entitled to vote should do a lot of objective research, or simply abstain from voting altogether.
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And it wouldn't be a single deal with EU countries, it would be 27 separate deals, each with their own restrictions, costs, procedures and rules. Each would have to be separately negotiated, and you think we'll come out the winner in most cases? We'll get bogged down in sub-deals, payments, disputes between other countries which will damage our ability to trade with those where we've sided with another country... ...you get the picture.
Yes this is incorrect. Any trade deal with EU countries will be negotiated with the EU Commission and it will be a single trade deal with the EU, not individual countries. However, the Commission will have to take account of all 27 countries wants and needs from such a deal and countries will be able to exercise their veto. ;)
It's often said that we have a trade deficit with the EU so they will be eager to sign a free trade deal with us, but not all of the 27 countries have a deficit with us or indeed do significant trade with the UK. So for example a country like Lithuania will have a very different axe to grind than Germany, and will probably demand the right of their people to live and work in the UK as part of the deal. I'd expect all of the Eastern block to demand this to be honest. ::)
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It doesn't really matter what the smaller countries want. Germany runs the EU, mostly for its own benefit. Only France has any really significant say in matters, and Merkel seems to be taking less notice of them than she used to.
German industry wont allow themselves to be put in a position where their exports to the UK are put at risk and Merkel knows it.
She is already under a lot of pressure at home on various fronts, and made herself very unpopular by inviting every waif & stray who wanted to come, to come to Germany / EU without bothering to consult anyone else.
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The Eastern European countries have formed their own little block within the EU in the wake of the migrant crisis. If 11 countries demand the same thing, ie the right of their peoples to live and work in the UK as part of a trade deal, the Commission will have to take note whatever Germany wants. ::)
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But we wont have to take any notice whatsoever. :) :).......but in reality, I firmly believe the Germans would never allow that to seriously interfere with their trading.
Ig need be, VAG could buy the smaller eastern bloc countries and change all their rules. ;D ;D
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I honestly believe that everyone entitled to vote should do a lot of objective research, or simply abstain from voting altogether.
Absolutely :y
And proper research, not the meaningless, incorrect tripe being said by the politicians (of all sides).
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Agreed. :y........................off you go then. :P ;D
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No it wouldn't!! If the EU remains in place, individual EU countries will be unable to conclude individual deals — only Brussels can do that.
Well that's bad news if we exit.
and it's "dangleberries" to think that any country in the world would shun us after Brexit.
Surely that's a contradiction of above? As we have to appease 27 countries at a time. And a very disparate 27 counties.
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Well that's bad news if we exit.
and it's "dangleberries" to think that any country in the world would shun us after Brexit.
Surely that's a contradiction of above? As we have to appease 27 countries at a time. And a very disparate 27 counties.
27 out of 195 other countries worldwide, or to put it another way the EU consists of 14% of the worlds countries. So maybe we'd be better off engaging with the other 86% of the world on our own terms. :)
We should be a little a lot more ambitious! :y Amended. ;)
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I like that word, ambitious. I feel that we are just trundling along under the umbrella of the EU and at their collective pace.
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One point I have raised is what happens to foreign owned companies employing locals.
I have a school pal who has a very good farming business going in Romania. He saw ages ago that land prices are/were very low and yet the growing conditions were good. He employs a fair number of Romanians. Sadly each time I have dropped in to his UK base to ask him he has been there working. Similarly I believe there are 248,000 mostly Brits employed in the Uk by as an example German owned companies. Normalising those and many others won't be a quick job. Actually it could be and might be when the vested interests see how joint trade is just going down the pan threatening the world with recession. Fanciful? maybe but Frau Merkel fired her first warning shot today despite having said she wouldn't comment on the referendum.
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Well that's bad news if we exit.
and it's "dangleberries" to think that any country in the world would shun us after Brexit.
Surely that's a contradiction of above? As we have to appease 27 countries at a time. And a very disparate 27 counties.
27 out of 195 other countries worldwide, or to put it another way the EU consists of 14% of the worlds countries. So maybe we'd be better off engaging with the other 86% of the world on our own terms. :)
We should be a little a lot more ambitious! :y Amended. ;)
But the EU part is still important, as most estimates put it at approaching half of all our exports?
Just reading some stuff about being like Norway, as the Leave group frequently use as a utopia we should be aiming for, and it appears that their deal to access the EU market prohibits Norway from making separate trade deals with non EU countries where the EU has a trade agreement in place, or being negotiated. So we wouldn't get any additional freedom?
But the EU is probably not going to be an area of export growth, so do we need any trade agreement with EU states?
Obviously, that would completely bugger Sunderland's chances of getting any more models from Nissan ;D
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To be honest I think we should forget about being like Norway, Switzerland or Albania for that matter and just be ourselves. I also think that the conditions demanded by the EU for a trade deal would be so onerous that we'd be better off without one in the long term. ;)
I mean how can the EU dictate to Norway who they can and can't do deals with FFS! >:( This sort of thing is exactly why we should head for the exit! :)
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I keep a close eye on the leave groups and they don't advocate a Norwegian style deal, or any other style deal. They advocate hammering out a deal from a position of strength.
The remain campaign though continually try to pigeonhole the leave argument into a Norwegian scenario, to advance their own arguments.
No idea what the latest figures are on exports to they EU are (and they have always been very suspect, even by EU standards), but I'm sure its nothing like half.
Nissan have already stated (as have many other large companies) that the result of the vote wont affect their UK operations.
Imo the financial institution on this country which is the best one to invest with these days for SIPPS, and various other products, is Hargreaves Lansdown, they are very dynamic, forward looking, and have gone from nothing to major players in a relatively short space of time.
They aren't members of the elite big boys club, such as Golden Sacks etc. They are ploughing their own furrow very successfully indeed.
Peter Hargreaves, founder of the company is convinced that Brexit would be a fantastic move for the UK economy. I would much rather go with his view on the subject, than the economic remedial we have in number 11 these days, or the global corporation which said we must join the Euro, and advised that the Greek economy was in good enough shape to join the Euro.
http://citywire.co.uk/wealth-manager/news/peter-hargreaves-brexit-would-be-an-absolute-fillip-for-uk/a892351
http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/615920/Peter-Hargreaves-why-he-backs-Brexit-why-Mark-Carney-should-keep-out
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No it wouldn't!! If the EU remains in place, individual EU countries will be unable to conclude individual deals — only Brussels can do that.
Well that's bad news if we exit.
Of course it isn't. We will carry on trading as usual. If the EU has taken 50 years to negotiate not one trade agreement with a top ten economy, then our fellow European countries will not wait for the EU to negotiate a deal with us. They'll just get on with trading.
You do realise that our top export country is the US, with whom we do not have a trade agreement?
and it's "dangleberries" to think that any country in the world would shun us after Brexit.
Surely that's a contradiction of above? As we have to appease 27 countries at a time. And a very disparate 27 counties.
No, it's not a contradiction. Merely pointing out that, in spite of the fact that the remaining members of the EU would be unable to negotiate separate agreements with us, we are too big to be shunned anyway.
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A really interesting thread this... The leave lovers can find and quote "facts" to help the discussion go their way but those same arguments (and others) can be used for staying! And vice versa :D
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Of course, no one has mentioned the fact that, if we do vote to Remain, we will be treated like a whimpering dog returning to its master with its tail between its legs. The EU will see us as a weak member, as we will have no ammo left, and so will push forward with further rapid integration to an EU superstate.
We would have less influence than before (which was negligible). :( :(
Vote Leave!
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Well here are a couple of easy facts we have a very large national debt that despite all the extra people and cuts to services is still going up! And my pension age went up at 50 to 67 and for you with children 70 unless they add a couple years like they did to me by the time they get to 50. Out is the only way because in isn't working, then less immigration from everywhere and train our young people for the skills we need. I do wonder when there are only two net contributers to the EU, us and Germany its just like Eurovision we pay and come last!! I'm just about to Google retirement ages across the EU surely nobody works later than 70!!
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Off to see Farage in Bristol on Saturday to say THANK YOU!!
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Off to see Farage in Bristol on Saturday to say THANK YOU!!
+1 :y
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I've read all of this with interest.
All I will say is for those who think we need Europe more than it needs us,, Go and sit at any major ferry port(Dover) and watch the trucks entering the UK and those leaving, You will notice very quickly, it's about 10 to 2, that's 10 European trucks to 2 UK registered trucks.
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I've read all of this with interest.
All I will say is for those who think we need Europe more than it needs us,, Go and sit at any major ferry port(Dover) and watch the trucks entering the UK and those leaving, You will notice very quickly, it's about 10 to 2, that's 10 European trucks to 2 UK registered trucks.
The 10 European trucks will not travel back empty ... they will take our exports back with them.... there will be more European trucks as they come from far more countries (27 I believe :) ) so not a very good analysis tool IMHO .. :), unless you can factually prove that they arrive full and leave empty .... which no haulage company could survive on ..... :)
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I've read all of this with interest.
All I will say is for those who think we need Europe more than it needs us,, Go and sit at any major ferry port(Dover) and watch the trucks entering the UK and those leaving, You will notice very quickly, it's about 10 to 2, that's 10 European trucks to 2 UK registered trucks.
The 10 European trucks will not travel back empty ... they will take our exports back with them.... there will be more European trucks as they come from far more countries (27 I believe :) ) so not a very good analysis tool IMHO .. :), unless you can factually prove that they arrive full and leave empty .... which no haulage company could survive on ..... :)
There's a higher percentage that go back empty.
Bulgarian bob, drives a Romanian registered truck pulling a German trailer, delivering Spanish lettuce to Aldi, that truck then goes back to Belgium or Holland and loads chips back to KFC, they yo-yo across the channel for 8weeks.
I see things that you won't believe.
Europe needs us more.
I know it's old and worn but we have the commonwealth, we can get everything we need from it, wouldn't take long to start again, think what can't we get from the commonwealth.
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think what can't we get from the commonwealth.
Sauerkraut! :P
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think what can't we get from the commonwealth.
Sauerkraut! :P
Be plenty of that if we leave :D
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In Bristol today at the Grassroots Out campaign,first on stage Dr Liam Fox(Con) generous applause and has to be said a very good speaker then he introduced the next guest without whom we would not be having this chance. From the back of the room with security like a boxer entering the ring he walked forward and everyone stood up and applauded,quite remarkable really!! I think it was respect ! I wonder what Liam Fox was thinking? If you like watching this nobody getting this attention and for a politician too!! I had a great day and for a first timer it was an eye opener,so if you get the chance go and watch him before the 23rd our Independence Day!!
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In Bristol today at the Grassroots Out campaign,first on stage Dr Liam Fox(Con) generous applause and has to be said a very good speaker then he introduced the next guest without whom we would not be having this chance. From the back of the room with security like a boxer entering the ring he walked forward and everyone stood up and applauded,quite remarkable really!! I think it was respect ! I wonder what Liam Fox was thinking? If you like watching this nobody getting this attention and for a politician too!! I had a great day and for a first timer it was an eye opener,so if you get the chance go and watch him before the 23rd our Independence Day!!
That's all well and good, but at these sort of meetings they're preaching to the converted. ;)
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In Bristol today at the Grassroots Out campaign,first on stage Dr Liam Fox(Con) generous applause and has to be said a very good speaker then he introduced the next guest without whom we would not be having this chance. From the back of the room with security like a boxer entering the ring he walked forward and everyone stood up and applauded,quite remarkable really!! I think it was respect ! I wonder what Liam Fox was thinking? If you like watching this nobody getting this attention and for a politician too!! I had a great day and for a first timer it was an eye opener,so if you get the chance go and watch him before the 23rd our Independence Day!!
I think it's beginning to look that way
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I agree with you that most were but not all and that's why out of curiosity if nothing else you should give it a chance.Never in my life have i ever been so interested in politics,his views in particular i find much more engaging but if you don't maybe after watching you will!!!! Worth a mention about a mile away there were police in riot gear for a far left v far right demo now that is the extreme end in action!!
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And here is said event and i'm in it i.e tall call with white top at start---https://www.facebook.com/nigelfarageofficial/videos/1042554939125442/
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I am going to be voting out.
However irrespective of this I predict the country will vote 62% to 38% to stay. Note these are made up figures by me so no abuse please.
The reason I think this is because the stay in campaign are all over the place. The leave campaign are just too quiet. The public will vote for what they see most people agreeing with.
I wonder why so quiet. Tv companies with vested interests?
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Stay campaign is all over the place. By this I meant they're very visible with adverts and such
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Just been watch Sunday Politics on BBC.
Daniel Hannan (who stands to loose his job as MEP if we leave) spoke in favour of Brexit
John Prescot ranted and raved about Labour Vs Tories party politics, supposedly in favour of Remain.
Some others.
Danniel Hannan absolutely ruled. Cool calm, rational reasoning, incredibly elequent. Has probably done more to sway me than anyone else. But right now I'm still undecided :-\
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I'm reluctant either way.
I'm far from convinced that a prosperous new era will dawn if we leave.
I'm far from convinced that remaining will be the better option.
Bonkers Boris and 'shouty' Farage don't help the leave campaign in my opinion.
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John Prescot ranted and raved about Labour Vs Tories party politics, supposedly in favour of Remain.
No doubt they'll have him on next week to finish the sentence he started this week. ;)
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What concerns me is the the EU is currently reviewing VAT and there have already been negative comments about our zero-rating. So, if Remain wins (please God, no), then I reckon we can look forward to VAT on food, medicine and childrens' clothes. And there won't be a thing we can do to stop it. >:( >:(
Not a scare story, but a very real possibility.
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What concerns me is the the EU is currently reviewing VAT and there have already been negative comments about our zero-rating. So, if Remain wins (please God, no), then I reckon we can look forward to VAT on food, medicine and childrens' clothes. And there won't be a thing we can do to stop it. >:( >:(
Not a scare story, but a very real possibility.
Strange .... you state its not a scare story .. but you don't state its totally untrue and made up .... but never let the truth get in the way of a good smear campaign.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-vat-idUKKCN0V52W8
Please note the line that says ..
"Economics Commissioner Pierre Moscovici told a news conference that the executive European Commission's aim was to have a "definitive" VAT regime for the bloc, but noted that all decisions in this area were subject to national veto rights."
and
"A British government spokeswoman stressed there was no EU proposal to scrap zero rates and that London would veto it if there were. "Our position on this is clear," she said. "We will keep zero rates of VAT on certain goods and services we negotiated when we joined the European Community."
:) :)
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What concerns me is the the EU is currently reviewing VAT and there have already been negative comments about our zero-rating. So, if Remain wins (please God, no), then I reckon we can look forward to VAT on food, medicine and childrens' clothes. And there won't be a thing we can do to stop it. >:( >:(
Not a scare story, but a very real possibility.
Strange .... you state its not a scare story .. but you don't state its totally untrue and made up .... but never let the truth get in the way of a good smear campaign.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-vat-idUKKCN0V52W8
Please note the line that says ..
"Economics Commissioner Pierre Moscovici told a news conference that the executive European Commission's aim was to have a "definitive" VAT regime for the bloc, but noted that all decisions in this area were subject to national veto rights."
and
"A British government spokeswoman stressed there was no EU proposal to scrap zero rates and that London would veto it if there were. "Our position on this is clear," she said. "We will keep zero rates of VAT on certain goods and services we negotiated when we joined the European Community."
:) :)
The European Court of Justice on Thursday ruled that the UK’s longstanding reduced five per cent rate of VAT on energy-saving products was in breach of EU laws. So where's our veto on that then? What happens if a member country takes us to court over zero-rating?
In any event, I think it's highly likely that QMV will be introduced for taxation, if not in 2016, then within the next few years. It is, after all, what the EC wants:
"Some Member States do not think it desirable to extend qualified majority voting to taxation. This view is not shared by the European Commission, which considers that QMV is necessary in some areas of taxation."
Yes, I think that then of zero-rating is a real possibility as the EU heads towards a superstate and harmonised taxation. This referendum is not just about what the EU is now, but what direction it is headed.
Finally, I do not like the patronising "never let the truth get in the way of a good smear campaign". I'm not smearing anyone or anything, just stating what I believe to be a very plausible scenario. Am I allowed an opinion?
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What concerns me is the the EU is currently reviewing VAT and there have already been negative comments about our zero-rating. So, if Remain wins (please God, no), then I reckon we can look forward to VAT on food, medicine and childrens' clothes. And there won't be a thing we can do to stop it. >:( >:(
Not a scare story, but a very real possibility.
You coinveniently forget that changes to taxation is one of the areas that the UK veto applies.
Or put more concicely - your post is dangleberries.
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The European Court of Justice on Thursday ruled that the UK’s longstanding reduced five per cent rate of VAT on energy-saving products was in breach of EU laws. So where's our veto on that then? What happens if a member country takes us to court over zero-rating?
In any event, I think it's highly likely that QMV will be introduced for taxation, if not in 2016, then within the next few years. It is, after all, what the EC wants:
"Some Member States do not think it desirable to extend qualified majority voting to taxation. This view is not shared by the European Commission, which considers that QMV is necessary in some areas of taxation."
Yes, I think that then of zero-rating is a real possibility as the EU heads towards a superstate and harmonised taxation. This referendum is not just about what the EU is now, but what direction it is headed.
Finally, I do not like the patronising "never let the truth get in the way of a good smear campaign". I'm not smearing anyone or anything, just stating what I believe to be a very plausible scenario. Am I allowed an opinion?
What part of Veto don't you understand? As long as HMG says No, it won't happen.
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What concerns me is the the EU is currently reviewing VAT and there have already been negative comments about our zero-rating. So, if Remain wins (please God, no), then I reckon we can look forward to VAT on food, medicine and childrens' clothes. And there won't be a thing we can do to stop it. >:( >:(
Not a scare story, but a very real possibility.
You coinveniently forget that changes to taxation is one of the areas that the UK veto applies.
Or put more concicely - your post is dangleberries.
And you obviously didn't read his post properly, where he pointed out that QMV might be applied to taxation. :-X
Personally, I think that national vetoes will be abolished eventually as they make the decision making process too unwieldy with 28 countries, and possibly 35 countries in the future. ::)
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And you obviously didn't read his post properly, where he pointed out that QMV might be applied to taxation. :-X
Personally, I think that national vetoes will be abolished eventually as they make the decision making process too unwieldy with 28 countries, and possibly 35 countries in the future. ::)
Not without HMG agreeing to it. Again - what part of VETO is so difficult to understand?
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And you obviously didn't read his post properly, where he pointed out that QMV might be applied to taxation. :-X
Personally, I think that national vetoes will be abolished eventually as they make the decision making process too unwieldy with 28 countries, and possibly 35 countries in the future. ::)
Not without HMG agreeing to it. Again - what part of VETO is so difficult to understand?
But if 27-34 other countries vote in the opposite direction, we're only going to be able to say no for so long...
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And you obviously didn't read his post properly, where he pointed out that QMV might be applied to taxation. :-X
Personally, I think that national vetoes will be abolished eventually as they make the decision making process too unwieldy with 28 countries, and possibly 35 countries in the future. ::)
Not without HMG agreeing to it. Again - what part of VETO is so difficult to understand?
But if 27-34 other countries vote in the opposite direction, we're only going to be able to say no for so long...
No. Changes to EU Tax legislation requires unanimous agreement of all 28 countries. New countries entering the EU requires the unanimous agreement of all 28 countries. Treaty changes require unanimous agreement of all 28 countries. Removing the VETO would need a treaty change.
If the UK says no, then it can't happen.
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Personally, I think that national vetoes will be abolished eventually as they make the decision making process too unwieldy with 28 countries, and possibly 35 countries in the future. ::)
. . . . and that is very much part of the problem. Originally just 6 countries all geographically near each other, all with broadly similar cultures etc. Now . . . . .
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And you obviously didn't read his post properly, where he pointed out that QMV might be applied to taxation. :-X
Personally, I think that national vetoes will be abolished eventually as they make the decision making process too unwieldy with 28 countries, and possibly 35 countries in the future. ::)
Not without HMG agreeing to it. Again - what part of VETO is so difficult to understand?
But if 27-34 other countries vote in the opposite direction, we're only going to be able to say no for so long...
No. Changes to EU Tax legislation requires unanimous agreement of all 28 countries. New countries entering the EU requires the unanimous agreement of all 28 countries. Treaty changes require unanimous agreement of all 28 countries. Removing the VETO would need a treaty change.
If the UK says no, then it can't happen.
That's assuming that the UK will say no. Not all British PM's are as hard nosed with the EU as Thatcher was. :(
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That's assuming that the UK will say no. Not all British PM's are as hard nosed with the EU as Thatcher was. :(
Correction. No PMs have been as hard nosed with the EU as Thatcher was
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Strange thing is that my sister and brother in law who have lived in Canada for 37 years and have been told that as they are receiving a UK state pension they are eligible to vote, if they care to register ::) But I'm sure that there's a rule that ex pats can't vote here after 15 years of absence :-\
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I read yesterday that in the event of Brexit, MP,s are already planning to stay in the single market with free movement of people etc. without consulting the electorate. If this is true its utterly outrageous. >:( >:( >:(
Btw, much of what Entwood and LCO112G say is true, but IMO they miss one crucial thing. These things will change in time. History shows us that the EU is a one way ratchet. If you look at how things have changed since last time we voted to stay in, its quite staggering.
This process will continue no matter what Cameron says, and will carry on long after he is gone.
In the 70,s both Heath and Wilson assured the electorate that there would be no loss of soberiegnty and no process of intwegration into Europe.
Papers released since then have shown that they knew full well that they were lying to the country and parliament, just as Cameron knows he is lying now.
Voting for the status quo is not an option. We either leave or we accept much more integration in the not too distant future.
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It's going to be interesting tomorrow night....Camermoron V's Farage in a face up. Farage never takes a knife to a gun fight, so I for one will be glued to the haunted fish tank :)
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Firstly, can I state that I do not think our PM is a particularly good statesman... ...just probably the best to what was on offer at the time. Likewise, despite Mr MigV6 attempt to brainwash us into thinking that Mr Farage is almost electable over the past 7 or 8 years, I think Farage is nothing more than a release of hot air...
Camermoron V's Farage
But this turns a serious debate into a childish playground banter...
Its the issues, not the personalities that count.
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I read yesterday that in the event of Brexit, MP,s are already planning to stay in the single market with free movement of people etc. without consulting the electorate. If this is true its utterly outrageous. >:( >:( >:(
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36457120
Yep it looks like there will be an establishment stitch up of some kind to protect all those vested interests! ::)
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I read yesterday that in the event of Brexit, MP,s are already planning to stay in the single market with free movement of people etc. without consulting the electorate. If this is true its utterly outrageous. >:( >:( >:(
The result of the referendum is not binding on the government, so a majority for "Leave" does not automatically result in the start of the process to leave. It's likely to need parliament to vote to accept the result of the referendum, and I doubt that the majority of MP's support Leave.
It's also possible that the 2020 general election results in a govt that doesn't support "Leave", in which case if we haven't handed in our notice before the election, the new govt will say it's got a mandate to remain.
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I read yesterday that in the event of Brexit, MP,s are already planning to stay in the single market with free movement of people etc. without consulting the electorate. If this is true its utterly outrageous. >:( >:( >:(
The result of the referendum is not binding on the government, so a majority for "Leave" does not automatically result in the start of the process to leave. It's likely to need parliament to vote to accept the result of the referendum, and I doubt that the majority of MP's support Leave.
It's also possible that the 2020 general election results in a govt that doesn't support "Leave", in which case if we haven't handed in our notice before the election, the new govt will say it's got a mandate to remain.
I think that it would be a very unwise government that ignores the result of this referendum! :o And if there is a vote for Brexit which is ignored I'd expect civil unrest and a UKIP landslide victory at the 2020 election. ::)
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This post the vote thing has been exercising my mind.
Lets say Brexit wins the day. You (we) are still ruled by a party that is split down the middle and yet was only voted for by something like 36% of the populace. The leadership of the Tory party could easily be resolved and to me that was Boris's aim. A shot at power he wouldn't otherwise have got. Osborne would have been the favourite post Cameron. Labour came out in support of staying in. So post Brexit a large proportion of MPs would be anti. That does give me cause for concern.
It might still work if some clever folk got on with the job. For example stunning the pundits and instead of having to opt for a Norway style trade agreement etc etc coming up with (off the top of my head) starting a new common market to include Europe, Middle East and Africa. EU could join if they wanted.
seveteen days to go. Vested interests are huddled somewhere cooking up a winning publicity stunt whilst hoping there isn't an Immigration disaster or a leak about something the EU has up its sleeeves for post 24th June. Whatever they pull off it should win the day against the little person (for that is what the Out campaign is). Donald Trump is I believe opening his golf course in the Uk the day before (I think) I bet both sides have got their diaries full for that day already.
My final thought is if only the EU had adapted by say reducing the UK contribution and other changes over and above the trifle Cameron came back with, we wouldn't be having a referendum. True Cameron actually called it but the EU could have defused it if they had wanted to.
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a bit of a lighter look at day after the referendum. ;D ;D
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7eac4946-ffd1-11e5-ac98-3c15a1aa2e62.html#axzz4Aki7XOBK
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Voting for the status quo is not an option. We either leave or we accept much more integration in the not too distant future.
My view, that kinda summarises it. People have to decide good or bad. Crystal ball required about what "integration" entails
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When the Leave narrowly win on the 23rd, there is only one sensible option and that is an EEA treaty which includes us staying in the single market. The control of EU immigration will not happen overnight, but we will be able to make our criterion for looking for work eligibility and benefits access tougher than we can at present. The next step beyond this is to join EFTA which unlike the EU is purely a trading block.
With an EEA treaty we will gain:
1. Our law has supremacy over EU law, so we are a sovereign state again.
2. Our supreme court is our highest court not the ECJ.
3. Most standards are global and made by global institutions like WTO, ISO etc. The UK will in effect be promotion by sitting on the top table like Noway in these standard negotiations, which at the moment we delegate to the EU and have to accept what they decide through QMV and any gold plating they QMV add.
4. We can negotiate our own trade deals and this will happen much faster than through the EU as they have to get 28 countries to agree. This is why they have an appalling record with very few trade agreements that have taken an inordinate long time to negotiate, with failure to agree being a very common outcome.
5. CAP, CFP, minimum VAT rates will not apply, nor will the currently being implement common tax rules and rates or the soon to be formed EU-Army (which to French great satisfaction, undermines NATO).
6. It will take a minimum of 2 years to get the EEA deal and probably more like 6 years to unpick 40 years of EU regulation. The EFTA is a global trading block which will further boost our global trade.
7. All these scare stories fables on how the sky will fall in on the 24th if we vote leave, take with a pinch of salt for the bullsh!t that they are. Norway went through the same with both their EU joining referendums which they rejected and yes it did make a difference they are now one of Europe's richest countries with a massive sovereign wealth fund.
8. Being an EEA member means we pay much less than our current EU fees, saving in the order of £5-7bn.
9. Prof Patrick Minford one of our leading macro-economists has calculated that with reduced EU over regulation that our economy will grow by at least an extra 6% over 10 years. A good measure on how the EU has stunted growth over the last 25 years is that the EU percentage of world trade has fallen twice as fast as it has for the US.
10. So use your vote wisely on the 23rd and if you belong to certain communities, don't forget to vote early and often. ::) ::) ::)
The leaving process is all explained in this FLEXIT video or the 420 page PDF for those, like me, that prefer to read.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GliFMIHiGog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GliFMIHiGog)
http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf (http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf)
There is also the "Brexit The Movie" for those that haven't seen it, a bit too MSM for me, where I prefer as dry as cream-crackers style information videos and podcasts, but it does contain some interesting information.
https://www.brexitthemovie.com/ (https://www.brexitthemovie.com/)
There is a wealth of information from both sides using social media (facebook, twitter). This has been especially important for Leave as they have a fraction of the budget of Remain, including the full 'un-biased' reporting by the BBC! The stream of government announcements has now stopped due to 1 month of Purdue, where it is illegal for Government to use the full resources of the civil service (at tax payers expense) which they did up to the 23th of May. Considering that the establishment have had global resources at their disposal I think Leave where they are currently at about 50% polling with momentum on their side have done remarkably well, so far. So much so, that the current rumour in Brussels is to offer further concessions to Cameron as a Leave spoiler 1 week before the referendum and when Leave win don't be further surprised when the [start] EU offer further concessions along with the invitation for another referendum [go to start as many times as necessary until we learn to vote in 'right' way]. :o :o :o
We might be the first to Leave but we will probably be joined by at least 4 other countries pretty quickly and maybe more as we aren't the only ones that can see the damage the EU is doing to our political cohesiveness, institutions and especially our economic growth and wealth.
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When the Leave narrowly win on the 23rd
Do you have this weeks thunderball numbers too, please, Rods?
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Apparently 46 million registered to vote & about 7 million eligible but unregistered.
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A few issues with that...
1. Our law has supremacy over EU law, so we are a sovereign state again.
2. Our supreme court is our highest court not the ECJ.
The ECJ only rules on intra government EU regulations. HMG have signed up to all these rules and regulations within the EU, so the ECJ is only ruling on whether we are complying with the rules we have already agreed to. The ECJ has nothing to do with "Human Rights" and such - That's the European Court of Human Rights, which is not an EU institution, and we would still be a member of that even if we leave the EU. It's the ECHR that most people/politicians seem to have issues with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_the_European_Court_of_Justice_and_European_Court_of_Human_Rights
4. We can negotiate our own trade deals and this will happen much faster than through the EU as they have to get 28 countries to agree. This is why they have an appalling record with very few trade agreements that have taken an inordinate long time to negotiate, with failure to agree being a very common outcome.
But, the EU zone is the market for 43.7% of all UK exports. http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/mar2016
If the EU is so slow to negotiate trade deals with others, why would they be any quicker with us?
5. CAP, CFP, minimum VAT rates will not apply, nor will the currently being implement common tax rules and rates or the soon to be formed EU-Army (which to French great satisfaction, undermines NATO).
If we stay in, these can't happen unless HMG agree.
6. It will take a minimum of 2 years to get the EEA deal and probably more like 6 years to unpick 40 years of EU regulation. The EFTA is a global trading block which will further boost our global trade.
A dangerous assumption. Article 50 defines a MAXIMUM of 2 years negotiation, not a minimum, unless the council agrees to an extension. It would only need one country to not agree, and then we're out after 2 years regardless of whether any agreements have been reached. At that point import tarrifs/duties for our exports into the EU would apply until we manage to negotiate a trade deal.
http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html
7. All these scare stories fables on how the sky will fall in on the 24th if we vote leave, take with a pinch of salt for the bullsh!t that they are. Norway went through the same with both their EU joining referendums which they rejected and yes it did make a difference they are now one of Europe's richest countries with a massive sovereign wealth fund.
Which they have been building for 50 odd years by saving the proceeds of their north sea oil. A country with similar oil reserves to the UK, but only 5 million people vs the UK's 60 million so it's not difficult to see where all the money has come from. They got lucky, and have been saving their windfall whilst we've been basically wasting the money. We are where we are - the UK is not going to get another north sea oil windfall anytime soon.
8. Being an EEA member means we pay much less than our current EU fees, saving in the order of £5-7bn.
Source?
Norway's (an EEA member) prime minister doesn't appear to agree
http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/interview/vidar-helgesen-our-eea-contribution-costs-almost-as-much-as-eu-membership/
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model
Also, being in the EEA means complying with most EU laws, and accepting free movement of people, which seems to be what many Brexiters want to stop.
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Here's a novel idea :o
Why can't somebody tell the truth ???
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Here's a novel idea :o
Why can't somebody tell the truth ???
Fact is, they can't. Nobody, I mean NOBODY really knows with complete certainty the longer term benefits of staying and the disadvantages of leaving, and/or vice versa.
Everything we are told is opinion with or without some motive. Read everything, listen to everything, try to take everything on board, but mentally discard some of the hysterical dangleberries. Be sceptical.
In the last few days I've heard things from people that have swayed my opinion. And I think I have decided on my vote. However, I am not going to try and convince anyone to do the same.
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Instead of trying to make your brain explode by thinking of all of the benefits and losses for the country in general, try to imagine what it might mean to you personally. Then, selfishly, cast your vote.
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Instead of trying to make your brain explode by thinking of all of the benefits and losses for the country in general, try to imagine what it might mean to you personally. Then, selfishly, cast your vote.
But even that isn't so easy. "imagine" is the correct word
Down my way Sir Terry Mathews (a seriously rich businessman) has come out in favour of remain. He is very highly regarded and respected. But his reasons ? Not at all sure about them.
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A few issues with that...
The ECJ only rules on intra government EU regulations. HMG have signed up to all these rules and regulations within the EU, so the ECJ is only ruling on whether we are complying with the rules we have already agreed to. The ECJ has nothing to do with "Human Rights" and such - That's the European Court of Human Rights, which is not an EU institution, and we would still be a member of that even if we leave the EU. It's the ECHR that most people/politicians seem to have issues with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_the_European_Court_of_Justice_and_European_Court_of_Human_Rights
But, the EU zone is the market for 43.7% of all UK exports. http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/mar2016
If the EU is so slow to negotiate trade deals with others, why would they be any quicker with us?
If we stay in, these can't happen unless HMG agree.
A dangerous assumption. Article 50 defines a MAXIMUM of 2 years negotiation, not a minimum, unless the council agrees to an extension. It would only need one country to not agree, and then we're out after 2 years regardless of whether any agreements have been reached. At that point import tarrifs/duties for our exports into the EU would apply until we manage to negotiate a trade deal.
http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html
Which they have been building for 50 odd years by saving the proceeds of their north sea oil. A country with similar oil reserves to the UK, but only 5 million people vs the UK's 60 million so it's not difficult to see where all the money has come from. They got lucky, and have been saving their windfall whilst we've been basically wasting the money. We are where we are - the UK is not going to get another north sea oil windfall anytime soon.
Norway's (an EEA member) prime minister doesn't appear to agree
http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/interview/vidar-helgesen-our-eea-contribution-costs-almost-as-much-as-eu-membership/
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model
Also, being in the EEA means complying with most EU laws, and accepting free movement of people, which seems to be what many Brexiters want to stop.
The ECJ regularly through judgments increase the scope and depth of EU laws. Today is a good example that migrants can now ignore inter-border Schengen. The UK lost a very big corporate VAT rebate ruling which cost the Government £billions. Now if this had been UK law it could have been revised so it worked as the UK government intended as it was EU law, there was zero chance of any change. Ask any MP how muchEU law imposes on what they can do compared to what they would like to do and all UK law has to pass the test of being fully complaint with EU law.
In 1989 the EU was 54% of our export market. Where the majority of the EU is now a low growth area, so our exports to the rest of the world are growing at a faster rate then those to the EU. THE EU will not suddenly stop trading with us after 2 years as they sell much more to us than we do to them. It is the EU trade that give us our consistent worrying trade deficit.
You are wrong that tax rules can't be imposed VAT is a classic example, once something is VATable, it can not ever be VAT free and carries a minimum VAT rate of 5% unless all of 28 EU countries agree a special exception like recently with women's sanitary towels. Although the harmonization of taxes is primary aimed at Euro countries, once it is implemented we will no longer have NI numbers but EU tax numbers and it is not difficult to work out what they will be used for! Likewise, it looks like corporation tax rules will also apply EU wide with a common rate to stop abuses tax competition. There is also a wide disparity between the low and high tax countries and it won't be the high tax countries that will be willing to cut. This will mean higher prices for all of us.
Norway have been fortunate, and another EEA country must also be very lucky where they have no oil or gas but have gone from in 1955 to having 63% of PPP wealth compared to the US to 105% in 2015. With small Government, low taxes and very strong democracy with an electorate right to call referendums, the luckier they seem to have got, that's right Switzerland. In comparison Sweden have been very unlucky, nothing to do with being in the EU, large government and high taxes, just bad luck.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/6/richard-rahn-socialism-triggers-downward-spiral/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/6/richard-rahn-socialism-triggers-downward-spiral/)
http://capx.co/is-norway-a-model-for-britains-relationship-with-the-eu/ (http://capx.co/is-norway-a-model-for-britains-relationship-with-the-eu/)
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Here's a thought.
Mr Eu says to Blighty, "we fine you €20millon euro"
Blighty says "up yours we ain't paying"
What is Mr Eu going to do, send the army in, arrest Dave,.
A pint to think over :-X
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Here's a thought.
Mr Eu says to Blighty, "we fine you €20millon euro"
Blighty says publicly "up yours we ain't paying"
Blighty says privately "How soon can we pay?"
Probably nearer the truth to mull over your 568ml ;)
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Just watched the EU debate,at least Farage tried to answer the questions when not interupted, Cameron just dodged at least 2 questions in classic politician style!!
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The ECJ regularly through judgments increase the scope and depth of EU laws. Today is a good example that migrants can now ignore inter-border Schengen. The UK lost a very big corporate VAT rebate ruling which cost the Government £billions. Now if this had been UK law it could have been revised so it worked as the UK government intended as it was EU law, there was zero chance of any change. Ask any MP how muchEU law imposes on what they can do compared to what they would like to do and all UK law has to pass the test of being fully complaint with EU law.
They don't extend the scope or depth. They interpret the laws that have been passed by the various EU bodies. On occasions one countries interpretation of these laws conflicts with another countries interpretation. The ECJ makes a determination on which (if either) interpretation is "correct". If the laws are badly drafted, or the countries involved didn't understand what they were signing up to then that's their fault, not the ECJ's.
In 1989 the EU was 54% of our export market. Where the majority of the EU is now a low growth area, so our exports to the rest of the world are growing at a faster rate then those to the EU. THE EU will not suddenly stop trading with us after 2 years as they sell much more to us than we do to them. It is the EU trade that give us our consistent worrying trade deficit.
No-one is saying the EU will stop trading with the UK after BRexit, but the damage caused by tarrifs/duties to the UK would be much worse than to the remainder of the EU. The EU accounts for 43.7% of UK exports. The UK imports account for around 18% of EU exports. So whilst it's true the monetary value of EU imports is higher (as you say trade defecit), the percentage impact is much worse on the UK. Worst case (which won't happen) the UK loses 43% of exports, and the EU loses 18% - who's would that hurt the most? It's difficult to imagine any scenario where the UK comes out as the "winner" (or more accurately best loser) in any post Brexit tarrif/duty war.
You are wrong that tax rules can't be imposed VAT is a classic example, once something is VATable, it can not ever be VAT free and carries a minimum VAT rate of 5% unless all of 28 EU countries agree a special exception like recently with women's sanitary towels. Although the harmonization of taxes is primary aimed at Euro countries, once it is implemented we will no longer have NI numbers but EU tax numbers and it is not difficult to work out what they will be used for! Likewise, it looks like corporation tax rules will also apply EU wide with a common rate to stop abuses tax competition. There is also a wide disparity between the low and high tax countries and it won't be the high tax countries that will be willing to cut. This will mean higher prices for all of us.
I'm not wrong. Your description of the VAT system is correct. The recent VAT ECJ cases have revolved around the UK not applying the EU rules that we have already agreed to and have been passed correctly. The UK may want to vary it's tax rates, but it has already agreed that it would follow EU rules. You can't agree to do something and then go off and unilaterally do something else.
There is no chance of EU wide NI or corporation tax unless all 28 countries agree. The UK will use it's VETO if it has to in order to stop it.
Norway have been fortunate, and another EEA country must also be very lucky where they have no oil or gas but have gone from in 1955 to having 63% of PPP wealth compared to the US to 105% in 2015. With small Government, low taxes and very strong democracy with an electorate right to call referendums, the luckier they seem to have got, that's right Switzerland. In comparison Sweden have been very unlucky, nothing to do with being in the EU, large government and high taxes, just bad luck.
Huh? Switzerland isn't a member of the EEA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg
It is in EFTA. In order to trade within the EU is pays roughly half what Norway does (per capita) into the EU coffers, and has a reciprocal free movement of people agreement with the EU.
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There's a lot of words here. And I'm dyslexic ???
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You have had all the "good the bad and ugly" Of what will happen if we leave or stay....That's your lot folks...All they can do is go over old ground now, so its time to vote. :D :D :D :D
WW3 Or a night in bed with...........Angie ;D ;D ;D ;D
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/merkel-rating-sp-downgrading-jpg-crop_display.jpg)
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You have had all the "good the bad and ugly" Of what will happen if we leave or stay....That's your lot folks...All they can do is go over old ground now, so its time to vote. :D :D :D :D
WW3 Or a night in bed with...........Angie ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cor ! Where's my Sildenafil. Actually, not sure even that would do it . . . . .
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You have had all the "good the bad and ugly" Of what will happen if we leave or stay....That's your lot folks...All they can do is go over old ground now, so its time to vote. :D :D :D :D
WW3 Or a night in bed with...........Angie ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cor ! Where's my Sildenafil. Actually, not sure even that would do it . . . . .
Dont be so fussy
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"Never in the field of human conflict".....has the prospect of another world war looked so attractive when compared to the alternative offered here ;D ;D ;D
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D-Day is looming over the horizon, I was discussing the upcoming Euro vote with an elderly relative.
He seems lost in his own little world, but occasionally blurts out words of wisdom.
He`s a RN man of old & seems to be of the opinion; "We should get in close & start shellin em" :o
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D-Day is looming over the horizon, I was discussing the upcoming Euro vote with an elderly relative.
He seems lost in his own little world, but occasionally blurts out words of wisdom.
He`s a RN man of old & seems to be of the opinion; "We should get in close & start shelling em" :o
There in lyes a problem, with what we shall we shell'em, we don't have a frontline battleship, and bomber command doesn't exist, best ring barrack up and ask to borrow his.
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D-Day is looming over the horizon, I was discussing the upcoming Euro vote with an elderly relative.
He seems lost in his own little world, but occasionally blurts out words of wisdom.
He`s a RN man of old & seems to be of the opinion; "We should get in close & start shelling em" :o
There in lyes a problem, with what we shall we shell'em, we don't have a frontline battleship, and bomber command doesn't exist, best ring barrack up and ask to borrow his.
Barak couldn't give a toss about this country because once upon a time, long long ago, we used to be a colonial power and he thinks we haven't grovelled enough for our sins yet ;)
Anyway, Trump will be coming over here a few days before D Day so maybe we could tap him up for a ship or 2 ;)
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Obama couldn't give a flying monkey opps about what we decide... don't forget whatever happens, he will be un employed in November ;)
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Obama couldn't give a flying monkey opps about what we decide... don't forget whatever happens, he will be un employed in November ;)
And we'd be better off if Trump gets in as he clearly likes populist politics and has already said he'd do a quick trade deal. Hillary on the other hand is a career politician who just wants to maintain the status quo, so to the back of the queue you naughty Brits! ;)
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Is it this Donald Trump you are talking about?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/36478957/meryl-streeps-impression-of-donald-trump-is-pretty-hilarious
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One thing that is bothering me about this whole referendum issue is why if it is deemed to be so bad for the country that the agreement to have referendum ended up in the Tory manifesto in the first place.
As one assumes that it got put in there after considerable debate to find now that all those who see themselves voting "out" are made out to be simpletons for not understanding the economic issues.
So it may have been a sop to retain UKIP defectors but if it was so bad for the economy why reserve all the vitriol for out voters now - a choice was offered.
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The Tories were losing members and voters to UKIP in huge numbers. The promise of a referendum coupled with large scale electoral fraud (so far, allegedly) stemmed the flow and got Cameron back into Number 10.
He was between a rock and a hard place, and this was his way out. He is now doing the only thing he knows how to do, to get things back to his vision of normal.
A huge gamble, yes. But if he hadn't taken it he would have been history by now.
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The Tories were losing members and voters to UKIP in huge numbers. The promise of a referendum coupled with large scale electoral fraud (so far, allegedly) stemmed the flow and got Cameron back into Number 10.
He was between a rock and a hard place, and this was his way out. He is now doing the only thing he knows how to do, to get things back to his vision of normal.
A huge gamble, yes. But if he hadn't taken it he would have been history by now.
Whatever happened to putting the interests of your country before personal ambition?
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The Tories were losing members and voters to UKIP in huge numbers. The promise of a referendum coupled with large scale electoral fraud (so far, allegedly) stemmed the flow and got Cameron back into Number 10.
He was between a rock and a hard place, and this was his way out. He is now doing the only thing he knows how to do, to get things back to his vision of normal.
A huge gamble, yes. But if he hadn't taken it he would have been history by now.
Whatever happened to putting the interests of your country before personal ambition?
All politics is now days is self, and building ones own vested interest, its called freck you jack politics..
Politicians do it for themselves not the country, look at what "tony" "el Gordo" all earn now.
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The Tories were losing members and voters to UKIP in huge numbers. The promise of a referendum coupled with large scale electoral fraud (so far, allegedly) stemmed the flow and got Cameron back into Number 10.
He was between a rock and a hard place, and this was his way out. He is now doing the only thing he knows how to do, to get things back to his vision of normal.
A huge gamble, yes. But if he hadn't taken it he would have been history by now.
Whatever happened to putting the interests of your country before personal ambition?
A rare thing these days. Imo Farage did just that at the EU Parliament today. He made a speech telling them that their project was doomed to fail. Said that he hoped this would be the last time he was there to speak, then said "Im going out now, I may be some time". And walked out. :y
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One thing that is bothering me about this whole referendum issue is why if it is deemed to be so bad for the country that the agreement to have referendum ended up in the Tory manifesto in the first place.
As one assumes that it got put in there after considerable debate to find now that all those who see themselves voting "out" are made out to be simpletons for not understanding the economic issues.
So it may have been a sop to retain UKIP defectors but if it was so bad for the economy why reserve all the vitriol for out voters now - a choice was offered.
The real purpose of the Tory party for the last twenty odd years is to elect a new leader every few years. The referendum will give them an excuse to do that whatever the actual result.
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The Tories were losing members and voters to UKIP in huge numbers. The promise of a referendum coupled with large scale electoral fraud (so far, allegedly) stemmed the flow and got Cameron back into Number 10.
He was between a rock and a hard place, and this was his way out. He is now doing the only thing he knows how to do, to get things back to his vision of normal.
A huge gamble, yes. But if he hadn't taken it he would have been history by now.
Whatever happened to putting the interests of your country before personal ambition?
A rare thing these days. Imo Farage did just that at the EU Parliament today. He made a speech telling them that their project was doomed to fail. Said that he hoped this would be the last time he was there to speak, then said "Im going out now, I may be some time". And walked out. :y
Captain Oates said it better. ;)
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Whatever happened to putting the interests of your country before personal ambition?
A rare thing these days. Imo Farage did just that at the EU Parliament today. He made a speech telling them that their project was doomed to fail. Said that he hoped this would be the last time he was there to speak, then said "Im going out now, I may be some time". And walked out. :y
Captain Oates said it better. ;)
He'll look pretty silly if the vote is to remain and he has to go back. ;D
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This has just popped up on facebook. It might be a hoax, but I think he has been outspoken about his views on the EU in the past? :-\
(http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy208/tiggerhayes/jcb-eu_zpszfn1wj7y.jpg) (http://s792.photobucket.com/user/tiggerhayes/media/jcb-eu_zpszfn1wj7y.jpg.html)
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The Tories were losing members and voters to UKIP in huge numbers. The promise of a referendum coupled with large scale electoral fraud (so far, allegedly) stemmed the flow and got Cameron back into Number 10.
He was between a rock and a hard place, and this was his way out. He is now doing the only thing he knows how to do, to get things back to his vision of normal.
A huge gamble, yes. But if he hadn't taken it he would have been history by now.
Double whammy time for Dodgy Dave ExPM and Gideon 'I don't lie' towel folder on the 24th June both out of Government and leaving the EU means no well paid tax free job in Brussels with a generous pension. :o :o :o
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This has just popped up on facebook. It might be a hoax, but I think he has been outspoken about his views on the EU in the past? :-\
(http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy208/tiggerhayes/jcb-eu_zpszfn1wj7y.jpg) (http://s792.photobucket.com/user/tiggerhayes/media/jcb-eu_zpszfn1wj7y.jpg.html)
Pretty much my experience of exporting in the 1980's an 90's, where about 95% of our products were exported all over the world, to all all of the continents except Antarctica, including all of Europe, Americas, Australasia, the Middle East, Japan, China and India. You don't need to belong to any trading union to trade. Successfully exporting is actually very easy, most difficult part is making sure you are paid! ???
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You have had all the "good the bad and ugly" Of what will happen if we leave or stay....That's your lot folks...All they can do is go over old ground now, so its time to vote. :D :D :D :D
WW3 Or a night in bed with...........Angie ;D ;D ;D ;D
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70807181/merkel-rating-sp-downgrading-jpg-crop_display.jpg)
Another laptop broken, you know Mrs Opti gets jealous when Lord Opti flaunts his latest totty. ::) ::) ::)
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most difficult part is making sure you are paid! ???
So no different to trading inside the UK, then .. at least in my experience!
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This has just popped up on facebook. It might be a hoax, but I think he has been outspoken about his views on the EU in the past? :-\
(http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy208/tiggerhayes/jcb-eu_zpszfn1wj7y.jpg) (http://s792.photobucket.com/user/tiggerhayes/media/jcb-eu_zpszfn1wj7y.jpg.html)
No not a hoax.
Also at the toyota factory in derby the bosses sat everyone down and said that if we leave the EU then nothing will change and that there jobs were safe.
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I'm pretty sure Nissan and Honda have said the same. Yet Cameron was scaremongering about losing the car industry earlier in the week.
Eu car manufacturers send a hell of a lot more cars to the UK then we send to the EU, so if they impose a tariff then we can reciprocate. Seemples.
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I also know someone (works in translation services, IIRC) who was sat down by their London based employer and told that if we leave the EU they'll all be looking for new jobs as the company will shut down it's UK operations; so it's not all rosy.
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The car industry in the uk is booming right now. And we are in europe.
Boris and co. need to reassure people that this will not be affected.
But a lot of the components are sourced outside the uk. Germany and places like that.
The owners of these companies (all foreign) are bound to have a plan b if things go pear shaped with brexit. This will put into question these companies being based in the uk and the thousands of jobs tied to them.
We have managed to attract this foreign investment, and are now happily worrying the foreign owners.
Its called cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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The problem is that we have a PM who has instigated this referendum without a plan for one of the outcomes. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that he doesn't have a plan for either outcome, as I'm sure the EU will start tightening the screws once they know we've voted "in" for the long term, and I doubt he has a plan for that either.
It's the blind leading the blind, so everyone can fabricate whatever scare stories they please, and, in may cases, use them, together with positions of power, whether it be politically, or over their work force, etc. to try and influence the vote.
Factories in which huge investments have been made, and in which thousands of workers work, are not going to fall silent overnight. In fact, nothing is going to change overnight. Their trading conditions may change as the exit from the EU (or further integration into it, since that's the other option) is hammered out over the following years, but that will be small beer compared to the investment that these companies are set to lose if they simply close up shop and walk away, so I think talk of job losses is pure scaremongering.
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The answer to job losses being mere scare stories...
Two words.
Rover. Bmw.
A foreign owner saw uk trading conditions not going their way.
They sold up and walked away from the longbridge plant.
Hang on, thats not scaremongering. That actually happened.😲
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A question for those who are swayed by the "Stay" campaign and those who are not young enough to remember life without the EU :)
Why did all these industries that the UK thrive on set up and invest here ?
The short answer is that WE as a NATION are bloody good at making Cars, Plant machinery and a hell of a lot of other things.
Some of our so called British names may be owned by German financed companies or even the Chinese but at the end of the day, they choose to have there goods made here and not on mainland Europe for that reason.
I anybody thinks that companies like Peugeot in Coventry, Toyota in Derby, Nissan (or Datsun as it was called) up in Washington never mind BMW in the midlands are going to spit there dummy out and upsticks to mainland Europe because we vote BREXT then there living in fantasy land ::)
Oh yes, there will be some extra paperwork to be done but mainland Europe needs us probably more then we need them.
At the end of the day, in business whether it be a small company with 10 employees or a massive company with 50,000 employees, it always comes down to supply and demand. Any notion that Europe isn't going to play nicely IF or WHEN it comes down to working out the nitty gritty of the small print is 'dangle berries' because if these treatys drag on, not only will it hurt our economy but it will screw up there economy too ;)
You can exclude ROVER in that of course because they was that oppsed due to lack of investment and the 70's attitude of some of the workforce, that it was never going to be viable for anybody to turn around that mess :(
In fact, we can all thank Datsun back in the 70's for having faith in the British workforce when they setup in Washington.
I believe the conversation between the unions and Datsun went along the lines of ........... You look after us and we will look after you.
Amazing what happens when foreign investors come over here and PUT FAITH IN THE SKILLS OF THE BRITISH WORKFORCE
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The german finance minister has just said that if the uk leaves the eu it will have no access to the single market.
I think some of the brexiters may have to reconsider some of what has beeen said.
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The german finance minister has just said that if the uk leaves the eu it will have no access to the single market.
I think some of the brexiters may have to reconsider some of what has beeen said.
What the opps has it to do with the German Finance Minister ?
Unless he has permission to represent the whole European Union that is ::)
I wonder if this wonderful democracy have had a little vote on this subject ::)
I would say that the real fear of our little sausage eating friend is that if the UK votes BREXIT, how many others with follow ?
Just think Her Finance Minister, in 15 years time, it may just be Germany, France and a few other tin pot nations in your little club ::)
I wonder if you will still use the EURO as your currency or maybe that will have been succeeded by the New Deutschmark :-\
I can't see that going down too well in France though can you ;D
Should have kept to the old common market :y
Much better in those days before the EU decided it wanted to expand east from the east coast of the USA all the way upto the Urals
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I'm British,and not a European!so the rest of Europe can go and opps itself, OH! wait a minute..hasn't it already done that? :)
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I'm British,and not a European!so the rest of Europe can go and opps itself, OH! wait a minute..hasn't it already done that? :)
I'm from Hull
A part of East Yorkshire in England but I suppose British will do in this case :y :D :D :D
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what are the thousands of romany , Estonians , Romanians whom are terrorising parts of the uk contributing to the economy. I vote they all get reallocated to Westminster. then let see what David has to say. he just has not a clue
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We have lots of polish bulgarians and rumanian people where i am. To the point where they have increased all primary school places - classes are 50% bigger than 5 years ago.
They appear to all be working the jobs that brits no longer want to do. Construction. Cleaning. Child care.
The availability of a cheap young workforce that is willing to work is a tremendous asset.
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We have lots of polish bulgarians and rumanian people where i am. To the point where they have increased all primary schools are 50% bigger than 5 years ago.
They appear to all be working the jobs that brits no longer want to do. Construction. Cleaning. Child care.
The availability of a cheap young workforce that is willing to work is a tremendous asset.
Fair point
Sadly with the over protective nannying welfare state, the British people became friggin lazy bastards.
Luckily, the system is a lot harder nowdays to get money out of so people have to work now to survive.
The problem is, nobody will give the British a job nowdays when they can get a migrant to do it for less money.
Oh and please don't quote the this minimum wage / working wage shite to me because I get paid £7.75 a hour for 12 hour night shifts when I get work that is >:(
8 years ago, people doing my job would be earning in excess of £14 a hour for the same work at the same company.
Why do I get paid so little ?
Because they opened the borders to migrants who was (with the inclusion of tax credits ect) happy to live 6 or 8 people up in a 3 bedroom terraced house and take our jobs >:( >:(
Don't get me wrong here, I don't blame ANYBODY for coming here to improving there life and make a better future for there families but at the end of the day, we are but a small island with limited space and infrastructure so any jobs should go to the people who was born here first.
Then fill in the gaps with migrants if and when needed :y
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Fair point. Why havent successive governments retrained and reskilled the workforce? Why havent they increased help to low paid workers to make it worthwhile to work? Why is more investment in deprived parts of the country undertaken?
Why are the young written off?
Why are we ruled by old etonians? Thought that went out in 1955?
Why do the young not bother voting?
Is any of this the fault of the polish fella down my road?
They are just responding to market forces. I see them as a positive if they are prepared to work and fit in to our culture.
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Choose who you vote for carefully in our country and if you don't like vote them out!! You have no say over EU so need to worry there because you can't vote them out!! As for the Pole down the road who cares what he thinks after all he is just a visitor and has no loyalty or ties to this country unless in due course he proves differently.British people have always worked in all fields ,of course there are some who would prefer not to but then that's down to the government of the day to change their minds.When we leave school there has to be a broad spectrum of work and workers and this should be filled by our own people first and this will include training like when i did a 4.5 year apprenticeship as an electrician.But why bother to train your own that costs money so use imported workers with the skills you need and don't train,then eventually you will have non skilled work force and not much hope unless you go to uni and rack up a load of debt.Just take a moment to think it took me 4.5 years to train same for plumbers and all the building trades,could i get the same training in college,uni. As a customer would you want a truly skilled workman with experience or someone fresh out of college if they even do such things now,if employers don't train how will young people learn? I remember we needed welders from Poland for shipbuilding here the home of shipbuilding.How sad we have become!!!!!!!
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This increasingly looking like the "leave" are gonna get the vote on this.
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Seems Cameron and his his cronies are getting a bit desperate saying there could be cuts to the pensions NHS and defence
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what are the thousands of romany , Estonians , Romanians whom are terrorising parts of the uk contributing to the economy. I vote they all get reallocated to Westminster Chipping Norton. then let see what David has to say. he just has not a clue
Fixed that for you. ;)
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So following a Brexit Cameron claims pensions would be affected.
I saw an interesting demographics study in the FT. Age groups 50 and above were more likely to vote Out. So it is certainly a targeted pice of propaganda.
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Its actually true what he us saying about pensions. This country will struggle to maintain state pension and nhs due to an ageing population.
We arent the worse, germany has a bigger problem. However, they are openly welcoming people, i suspect with the knowledge that this will help solve the problem.
This is the secret, to preserve our current prosperity we need more young people.
Immigrants provide an immediate source of tax revenue without being a burden on the state.
They come here to work.
Its how america and germany became as rich as they are.
We are at risk of cutting off our nose to spite our face.
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Of course they can claim a pension here too!!! So if you can't pay for it now in 30 years time you will need more people to pay for them or put pension age up for all or stop it all together!!!
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No-one on the Leave side is advocating banning all immigrants from coming here. The point us, our elected Govt. should decide who comes and why. If we need a certain number of immigrants with particular skills, then of course they should be allowed to come.
Being in possession of an EU passport isn't a valid reason for being allowed to come here.
As for low paid low skill jobs. When all of our unemployed are employed in these jobs, if we still have shortage of people to fill the vacancies, then we can allow enough people in, on non permanent work visas, to fill the gaps.
Seemples.
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Why havent successive governments retrained and reskilled the workforce?
Why havent they increased help to low paid workers to make it worthwhile to work?
Why are the young written off?
Because it's cheaper and easier to ship in foreigners who are willing to work for minimum wage, than to invest in and train our own youngsters that's why. ::)
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In my experience poles bulgarians rumanians french and spaniards have not come here to claim 50 quid a week benefit. They didnt leave their homeland and their families behind for the english food or weather either.
They are here to work.
And having a ministry of immigration to tightly control whether someone is right for a job is not what british industry wants either. They need to fill positions now. Without the government giving them the ok.
We live in a globalised world. Companies go from country to country and have no loyalties.
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Why havent successive governments retrained and reskilled the workforce?
Why havent they increased help to low paid workers to make it worthwhile to work?
Why are the young written off?
Because it's cheaper and easier to ship in foreigners who are willing to work for minimum wage, than to invest in and train our own youngsters that's why. ::)
Less then minimum wage Sir Tiggs
Much less >:(
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In my experience poles bulgarians rumanians french and spaniards have not come here to claim 50 quid a week benefit. They didnt leave their homeland and their families behind for the english food or weather either.
They are here to work.
And having a ministry of immigration to tightly control whether someone is right for a job is not what british industry wants either. They need to fill positions now. Without the government giving them the ok.
We live in a globalised world. Companies go from country to country and have no loyalties.
Your spot there Johnny_boy
Companies are quite happy to employ the cheapest labour around because it means more money for the shareholder doesn't it ;)
In the meantime, the people who was born and bred here are kicked further down the food chain.
In fact since the Business act of 2006, profit for the shareholders is everything and how the workforce pay there bills or what squalor they live in is irrelevant.
Just as long as the job gets done and the fifthly lucre keeps flowing into the right taxfree off shore account pockets >:(
The gap between the silver spoon up arse brigade and the working class has never been wider >:(
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In my experience poles bulgarians rumanians french and spaniards have not come here to claim 50 quid a week benefit. They didnt leave their homeland and their families behind for the english food or weather either.
They are here to work.
And having a ministry of immigration to tightly control whether someone is right for a job is not what british industry wants either. They need to fill positions now. Without the government giving them the ok.
We live in a globalised world. Companies go from country to country and have no loyalties.
I think that the vast majority of Brits acknowledge this and I personally admire people who are willing to move thousands of miles away from their homes and families in search of a better life. :y What has made people angry however is the scale of mass immigration itself, not Pavel down the road who in all likelyhood is an honest decent chap. ;)
I used to lorry drive for a living and used to go in and out of all the big 4 supermarkets warehouses on a daily basis. Before 2004 they were all staffed by Brits on good wages (£19000 was the starting salary for warehouse work at Sainsbury's Warehouse in Bristol) and long term contracts, yet by 2006 the vast majority of workers in these places were Eastern Europeans on minimum wage zero hour contracts. These weren't new jobs these people were taking and in my view it was a massive stitch up between the politicians, big business and the trade unions! >:(
Mass immigration has been good for the economy, yes the majority of immigrants come here to work and contribute more than they take out, but it has depressed wages and has affected society in terms of our public services. We don't hear much about the deficit these days as our politicians want us to believe that we are a wealthy prosperous country and it's all down to the EU, but we still have an annual deficit of around £70-80 billion a year. We havn't got the upfront capital to invest in our infrastructure or public services so adding 3 million a decade to the population isn't going to end well! ::)
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Germany saw the beginning of low paid work coming 15 years ago. They dealt with it by splitting jobs into smaller units. So the employee works fewer hours at the same rate. The worker holds 2 or 3 jobs. In this way the employee stays employed at the same hourly rate.
Unions businesd and government came together to thrash out a deal.
Not saying this is for us.
But no such thing has been done here.
Workers are left to the mercy of the market.
Governments and the media in the uk are craven to big business, the murdochs and greens of this world.
Until that changes we are always going to be runners uo.
Thats why i think this whoke eu immigration thing is missing the point.
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Germany saw the beginning of low paid work coming 15 years ago. They dealt with it by splitting jobs into smaller units. So the employee works fewer hours at the same rate. The worker holds 2 or 3 jobs. In this way the employee stays employed at the same hourly rate.
Unions businesd and government came together to thrash out a deal.
Not saying this is for us.
But no such thing has been done here.
Workers are left to the mercy of the market.
Governments and the media in the uk are craven to big business, the murdochs and greens of this world.
Until that changes we are always going to be runners uo.
Thats why i think this whoke eu immigration thing is missing the point.
It's not, for very very points you make and it's why there is deep disquiet and quiet anger about immigration in the country. ::)
The refusal of the 'Remain' campaign to engage with the issue or even admit that we have no control over immigration from the EU will lose them the referendum in my view. ::)
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I think you will find that anti immigration people tend to be very vocal and motivated people.
Whilst people who think about the future prospects for the country are quietly weighing it up.
Immigration whilst a concern is weighed up against future opportunities in a single market place of hundreds of millions of customers. Also the ability to travel and work without restriction is also a tremendous opportunity. The ability to retire to spain and have full social security benefits. Your pension being paid as if you are in the uk. The ability of arresting criminals abroad in the eu - no more costa del crime and uk criminals hiding out on the continent. A quiet border in northern ireland because the uk is seen as being part of a wider european community rather than an occupying power.
You have to weigh this up if pavel and piotr in the polish shop are getting up your nose.
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My real gripe on immigration is not about work or benefits, etc. It is the effect on services, schools, hospitals. It is the difference in culture and their unwillingness to embrace the ways of the country they have chosen to settle in, and it is the fact that they have no concept of overpopulation and drop four or six kids in the same number of years, further stretching our resources.
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Pensioners from here in the UK are spending UK money in those countries and the UK picks up the bill for healthcare too,which we pay of course but they do not pay for their citizens here.Why are we one of only 2 countries who actually pay in,if you happy to have your tax money paying for Europe when we have food banks,working to 70,owe and absolute fortune and despite all the immigration and lower standards we still can't balance the books every month.How much worst can it get????
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Maybe I can explode this myth about mass uncontrolled immigration being necessary to fill vacancies because Brits don't have the skills or don't want the jobs.
Approx 13 years ago two relatives of mine and their were working on a building site. Both young skilled bricklayers and both serious grafters.
A pair of recent arrivals from eastern parts walked on site and asked the site agent how much he paid bricklayers. The answer was "£150 per day". They replied " we do it for you for £80 per day.
The two bricklayers were told to collect their tools and leave site immediately, the two recent arrivals were hired immediately.
Similar things happened all over the country, and till are.
Its nothing to do with unfilled vacancies or skills shortages. Its about cheap labour and compression of wages. We would be mad not to do something about it while we still have a chance.
The sting in the tail for the site agent concerned was that he had the cheek to ring up the two bricklayers he fired a month or so later and asked them if they would come back for a while as there was a lot of remedial work that needed doing and they were just the right skilled blokes for the job.
They told him to far cough, they would rather starve. :)
The EU is an old fashioned protectionist bloc, which is in dire economic trouble from which it cannot recover. Its collapse is inevitable, its just a matter of when it will happen.
Try telling young people in Greece or Spain that its a good thing for working people.
We need to stop being "little Europeans, and turn our sights towards the open seas and the wider world. Just as Churchill said we should do if faced with this choice. :y
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So you want to have wages protected?
Because it doesnt make any difference where you are from if you are talking about undercutting a price.
Its neither here nor there.
And yes there is a shortage of construction workers in the south east.
The london building boom would collapse without these workers.
They are doing jobs that brits wont do basically. Getting the train in and working hard long days in london. If i talk to british workers about working in london, they go 'nah, too much travelling'. They cant be arsed. And its good money too.
The opportunities are there, but a lot of brits are simply lacking the drive, energy and ambition. No use pointing the finger at foreigners.
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So you want to have wages protected?
Because it doesnt make any difference where you are from if you are talking about undercutting a price.
Its neither here nor there.
And yes there is a shortage of construction workers in the south east.
The london building boom would collapse without these workers.
They are doing jobs that brits wont do basically. Getting the train in and working hard long days in london. If i talk to british workers about working in london, they go 'nah, too much travelling'. They cant be arsed. And its good money too.
The opportunities are there, but a lot of brits are simply lacking the drive, energy and ambition. No use pointing the finger at foreigners.
Down here in West Wales getting work done is a nightmare, regardless of what you are prepared to pay.
I want a block wall built. Quite simple, a non load bearing internal block wall with a door that I will supply. No plastering or rendering. Three people never sent the quotes that they said they would, and the one that did has an eight week wait. It's being done (I Hope ???) later this month.
I'm pretty sure that some Polish guys in London would do it in a week or so, and at a good price. My issue with immigration is nothing to do with "cheap labour stealing our jobs" etc. It's just numbers. We're an Island. Our population is around the same as France, but France is almost twice the geographical size. Also, the population has increased quickly and not by gradual childbirth, so our resources the NHS, Schools, roads etc simply have not been able to keep up. I'd actually like a few Poles down here to give the local complacent workmen, builders, painters etc a reality check ::)
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No use pointing the finger at foreigners.
No one is..... It's the system that's wrong and that's what people are angry about. ::)
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So you want to have wages protected?
Because it doesnt make any difference where you are from if you are talking about undercutting a price.
Its neither here nor there.
And yes there is a shortage of construction workers in the south east.
The london building boom would collapse without these workers.
They are doing jobs that brits wont do basically. Getting the train in and working hard long days in london. If i talk to british workers about working in london, they go 'nah, too much travelling'. They cant be arsed. And its good money too.
The opportunities are there, but a lot of brits are simply lacking the drive, energy and ambition. No use pointing the finger at foreigners.
Down here in West Wales getting work done is a nightmare, regardless of what you are prepared to pay.
I want a block wall built. Quite simple, a non load bearing internal block wall with a door that I will supply. No plastering or rendering. Three people never sent the quotes that they said they would, and the one that did has an eight week wait. It's being done (I Hope ???) later this month.
I'm pretty sure that some Polish guys in London would do it in a week or so, and at a good price. My issue with immigration is nothing to do with "cheap labour stealing our jobs" etc. It's just numbers. We're an Island. Our population is around the same as France, but France is almost twice the geographical size. Also, the population has increased quickly and not by gradual childbirth, so our resources the NHS, Schools, roads etc simply have not been able to keep up. I'd actually like a few Poles down here to give the local complacent workmen, builders, painters etc a reality check ::)
Dont like quoting so much but go back 15 years you try getting small jobs done around the house here in hertfordshire. Carpentry, plumbing. Brit workers would come around to look at the job and wouldnt bother quoting or even ringing back. Later, polish people arrive in the area. Polish guys come around, quote, do the job at a fair price, do it well. Why would you want to turn the clock back.
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So you want to have wages protected?
Because it doesnt make any difference where you are from if you are talking about undercutting a price.
Its neither here nor there.
And yes there is a shortage of construction workers in the south east.
The london building boom would collapse without these workers.
They are doing jobs that brits wont do basically. Getting the train in and working hard long days in london. If i talk to british workers about working in london, they go 'nah, too much travelling'. They cant be arsed. And its good money too.
The opportunities are there, but a lot of brits are simply lacking the drive, energy and ambition. No use pointing the finger at foreigners.
Without doubt, the south east of this country and inside the M25 is a special case when it comes down to everything from the price of a bag of sugar upto property and land.
Everything is stupidly priced compared to the rest of the country and hopefully will eat itself sooner rather then later. Either that or build a friggin big wall around it and leave it to its own devices :y :y
So Johnny, what you are affectively saying is that if Abdul from his underdeveloped shithole of a country turns up on our shores, walks onto a building site and says he will build that wall for half what a British born and bred person will do then that's okay ?
Are really saying that if the British born and bred tradesman refuses to work for that pay, he is a lazy bastard and we should all be grateful to Abdul for showing us the error of our ways ::)
Even though Abdul is earning 3 times what he would be doing in his shithole country ?
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So you want to have wages protected?
Because it doesnt make any difference where you are from if you are talking about undercutting a price.
Its neither here nor there.
And yes there is a shortage of construction workers in the south east.
The london building boom would collapse without these workers.
They are doing jobs that brits wont do basically. Getting the train in and working hard long days in london. If i talk to british workers about working in london, they go 'nah, too much travelling'. They cant be arsed. And its good money too.
The opportunities are there, but a lot of brits are simply lacking the drive, energy and ambition. No use pointing the finger at foreigners.
Without doubt, the south east of this country and inside the M25 is a special case when it comes down to everything from the price of a bag of sugar upto property and land.
Everything is stupidly priced compared to the rest of the country and hopefully will eat itself sooner rather then later. Either that or build a friggin big wall around it and leave it to its own devices :y :y
So Johnny, what you are affectively saying is that if Abdul from his underdeveloped shithole of a country turns up on our shores, walks onto a building site and says he will build that wall for half what a British born and bred person will do then that's okay ?
Are really saying that if the British born and bred tradesman refuses to work for that pay, he is a lazy bastard and we should all be grateful to Abdul for showing us the error of our ways ::)
Even though Abdul is earning 3 times what he would be doing in his shithole country ?
Which EU shithole country did you have in mind that Abdul comes from Mr 'Nads? :-\ ::) ;D
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So you want to have wages protected?
Because it doesnt make any difference where you are from if you are talking about undercutting a price.
Its neither here nor there.
So you think it's OK that Brit workers on good contracts and wages have been pushed out of their jobs by the big companies, so that they can be replaced by those willing to work on minimum wage with a zero hours contract? ::)
You might think it's neither here or there, but try telling that to the people I knew that it happened to. People with mortgages, kids to feed etc etc >:(
Ordinary working people who were completely stitched up by the politicians, trade unions and big business! ::)
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No. I am saying that british tradesman didnt bother doing small jobs in my area. Polish guys do.
Also that in my area the brits will say that working in london is too much bother from travelling. You see lots of east europeans travelling to those jobs in central london in their place. Same job, same money.
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No. I am saying that british tradesman didnt bother doing small jobs in my area. Polish guys do.
Also that in my area the brits will say that working in london is too much bother from travelling. You see lots of east europeans travelling to those jobs in central london in their place. Same job, same money.
A lot of them don't have the same overheads many ordinary Brits have though....
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It sounds like a race to the bottom!! Very good for bosses but not so good for quality of life as every job is vulnerable!!!
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It sounds like a race to the bottom!! Very good for bosses but not so good for quality of life as every job is vulnerable!!!
Yep.
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When the unions were stronger, this wouldn't have happened, but the unions, of course, brought their own problems. We are, in general, f**ked, I think. Our generation had the best of times, the era from the sixties till the noughties, and I doubt we'll ever have it that good again.
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Well yes the demonisation of trade unions is a bit counter productive if you are a blue collar (manual) worker.
Lot of that garbage came from murdoch papers who had a stake in removing workers rights.
After all he was the poster boy of thatcher.
I always thought it was odd union bashing coming from working class people. For me, it was 'its the miners today, it will be you tomorrow'.
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The unions got drunk with power and thought they had the right to tell their members what to do, tell the elected Govt. what to do, and generally run the country.
I speak as a former TGWU shop steward / safety rep and former Socialist.
The point about the guys undercutting British workers is a very relevant one. They rent out garden sheds & garages in London to live to keep their overheads down. They live like that for a while to get themselves established, but once that happens, they will want the same wages, rights, legal protection etc. that the guys had who they undercut in the first place.
But as someone said, its really about numbers. Whatever your viewpoint, we are now at saturation point, especially in the southeast.
Roads, schools, hospitals, doctors surgeries etc. etc are all at bursting point, which is ruiniong the quality of life of the people already living here.
The greater EU question however, isn't really anything to do with any of this. A country which cannot make its own laws and pays taxes to foreign powers is no longer a country. That's what I want to change.
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Really what this referendum is about is globalisation isnt it?
Should british workers have to compete with foreigners?
Can we opt out of this and is opting out of this the future of the uk?
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No it's about sovereignty. Globalisation is not a new concept...
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Really what this referendum is about is globalisation isnt it?
Should british workers have to compete with foreigners?
Can we opt out of this and is opting out of this the future of the uk?
It's about whether we want to continue to be shackled to a small part of the world which is declining in global importance or free ourselves so we can engage freely with the wider global community of nations and on terms which suit us. :y
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I suppose the million dollar question is why should other countries accept our terms? On what basis?
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How many EU countries with influence really sell us that much,i'm thinking the western ones i.e Germany,France,Holland and Spain.It will effect their economies and workers if they don't get a deal or its 10pc tariff time and they have to compete with Korea,Japan etc as they already pay 10pc
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I suppose the million dollar question is why should other countries accept our terms? On what basis?
I suspect an independent UK's terms would be a lot less onerous and demanding than the EU's. ::)
All Britain will want to achieve from a trade deal is the ability to trade freely with that country, with minimal paperwork and low or zero tariffs. :y
I can't see Britain demanding contributions to our budget, the right of our people to live and work in that country and maybe even the regulatory burden would be less onerous. :y
In theory it should be quick and simple. Just 2 countries thrashing out a deal, which the US and Australia managed in 2 years. :)
How long have they been negotiating TTIP? ::)
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I suppose the million dollar question is why should other countries accept our terms? On what basis?
I suspect an independent UK's terms would be a lot less onerous and demanding than the EU's. ::)
All Britain will want to achieve from a trade deal is the ability to trade freely with that country, with minimal paperwork and low or zero tariffs. :y
I can't see Britain demanding contributions to our budget, the right of our people to live and work in that country and maybe even the regulatory burden would be less onerous. :y
In theory it should be quick and simple. Just 2 countries thrashing out a deal, which the US and Australia managed in 2 years. :)
How long have they been negotiating TTIP? ::)
You do reaise with that statement about the uk not demanding the right to live in the others country will affect 1.2 million britons? The number who live abroad in the eu?
What does the leave campaign propose for these people? Should they be repatriated? Or just leave them hung out to dry?
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I suppose the million dollar question is why should other countries accept our terms? On what basis?
I suspect an independent UK's terms would be a lot less onerous and demanding than the EU's. ::)
All Britain will want to achieve from a trade deal is the ability to trade freely with that country, with minimal paperwork and low or zero tariffs. :y
I can't see Britain demanding contributions to our budget, the right of our people to live and work in that country and maybe even the regulatory burden would be less onerous. :y
In theory it should be quick and simple. Just 2 countries thrashing out a deal, which the US and Australia managed in 2 years. :)
How long have they been negotiating TTIP? ::)
You do reaise with that statement about the uk not demanding the right to live in the others country will affect 1.2 million britons? The number who live abroad in the eu?
What does the leave campaign propose for these people? Should they be repatriated? Or just leave them hung out to dry?
It is simply another bit of "leave" campaign "magic maths" .... you close all the borders to immigrants, and demand everything the UK wants from the surrounding countries (who all capitulate because we are so wonderful) and the world is great.... we want it, we get it being the mantra.
The reality is those other countries actually make their own demands, and refuse to take on all the ex-pats living in their countries .. so .. we stop 500,000 immigrants (hooray .. look at the pressure that is no longer on housing/hospitals etc) .. but then 1,200,000 ex-pats come home ..... and all want somewhere to live, and many are elderly and need more medical services .....
but why let the truth get in the way of a good headline ??
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OR you draw a line in the sand and say, who is here can stay.
Too those who want to come here .......
IF you are a economic migrant AND the United Kingdom job market needs you to fulfil a position that no UK passport holders can do then welcome as long as you obey our laws, respect our language / way of life and have insurance for the first 5 years and pay into our system :)
In other words, basically the same as UK born people do in the rest of the world :)
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I suppose the million dollar question is why should other countries accept our terms? On what basis?
I suspect an independent UK's terms would be a lot less onerous and demanding than the EU's. ::)
All Britain will want to achieve from a trade deal is the ability to trade freely with that country, with minimal paperwork and low or zero tariffs. :y
I can't see Britain demanding contributions to our budget, the right of our people to live and work in that country and maybe even the regulatory burden would be less onerous. :y
In theory it should be quick and simple. Just 2 countries thrashing out a deal, which the US and Australia managed in 2 years. :)
8 of the UK's top 10 export markets are EU countries, and that accounts for 43.7% of exports. The USA is our single biggest market (15%), and we actually have a trade surplus with them.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/apr2016
So
No 1 : USA - Obama has already said the USA will be in no hurry to enter into any trade deals with the UK post Brexit. Do you believe him?
No 2,3,4,5,7,8,9 : All EU countries, so we would have to negotiate an EU wide deal for free trade . Likely to be very quick?
No 10 : Switzerland. One of our major competitors in Global financial markets. I suspect they'll tag along with the EU.
So that leaves no 6 - China.
Do we really want to give up the trade deals we already have (by virtue of EU membership) for the unknown prospect of yet to be negotiated deals with all of the above?
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I suppose the million dollar question is why should other countries accept our terms? On what basis?
I suspect an independent UK's terms would be a lot less onerous and demanding than the EU's. ::)
All Britain will want to achieve from a trade deal is the ability to trade freely with that country, with minimal paperwork and low or zero tariffs. :y
I can't see Britain demanding contributions to our budget, the right of our people to live and work in that country and maybe even the regulatory burden would be less onerous. :y
In theory it should be quick and simple. Just 2 countries thrashing out a deal, which the US and Australia managed in 2 years. :)
8 of the UK's top 10 export markets are EU countries, and that accounts for 43.7% of exports. The USA is our single biggest market (15%), and we actually have a trade surplus with them.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/apr2016
So
No 1 : USA - Obama has already said the USA will be in no hurry to enter into any trade deals with the UK post Brexit. Do you believe him?
No 2,3,4,5,7,8,9 : All EU countries, so we would have to negotiate an EU wide deal for free trade . Likely to be very quick?
No 10 : Switzerland. One of our major competitors in Global financial markets. I suspect they'll tag along with the EU.
So that leaves no 6 - China.
Do we really want to give up the trade deals we already have (by virtue of EU membership) for the unknown prospect of yet to be negotiated deals with all of the above?
Especially, after the amount of money that the Chinese are ploughing into these isles.
Its always going to be in China's interest to sort thing out quickly as well as our own ;)
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I suppose the million dollar question is why should other countries accept our terms? On what basis?
I suspect an independent UK's terms would be a lot less onerous and demanding than the EU's. ::)
All Britain will want to achieve from a trade deal is the ability to trade freely with that country, with minimal paperwork and low or zero tariffs. :y
I can't see Britain demanding contributions to our budget, the right of our people to live and work in that country and maybe even the regulatory burden would be less onerous. :y
In theory it should be quick and simple. Just 2 countries thrashing out a deal, which the US and Australia managed in 2 years. :)
How long have they been negotiating TTIP? ::)
You do reaise with that statement about the uk not demanding the right to live in the others country will affect 1.2 million britons? The number who live abroad in the eu?
What does the leave campaign propose for these people? Should they be repatriated? Or just leave them hung out to dry?
It is simply another bit of "leave" campaign "magic maths" .... you close all the borders to immigrants, and demand everything the UK wants from the surrounding countries (who all capitulate because we are so wonderful) and the world is great.... we want it, we get it being the mantra.
The reality is those other countries actually make their own demands, and refuse to take on all the ex-pats living in their countries .. so .. we stop 500,000 immigrants (hooray .. look at the pressure that is no longer on housing/hospitals etc) .. but then 1,200,000 ex-pats come home ..... and all want somewhere to live, and many are elderly and need more medical services .....
but why let the truth get in the way of a good headline ??
You think the Spanish are going to kick out all the British expats? That's complete nonsense, as most British expats in Spain are Spanish residents as well. If the Spanish and the other EU countries for that matter kicked out all the Brits it would be against International law and would be akin to Idi Amin kicking the Asian Ugandan's out of Uganda in the 1970's! ::)
Those living in EU countries who havn't already, might have to get work/residence visa's I concede, but I have British friends who live in the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Kenya, Malawi, Vietnam, and Singapore, all of whom have had to get a visa or permit of some sort or the other and they've managed to do that! :y
But as you are fond of saying Entwood lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story! ::)
The thing is, you both totally missed the point of my post about Britain doing trade deals, as I wasn't thinking about a deal with the EU, I was thinking about the rest of the world and my point was that in my opinion at least, Britain will be able to go out into the wider world and thrash out simple trade deals that lower or eliminate tariffs and red tape. That's it! Just a deal about trade, nothing about contribution's to each others budgets or access to each others labour markets. :y
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Especially, after the amount of money that the Chinese are ploughing into these isles.
Its always going to be in China's interest to sort thing out quickly as well as our own ;)
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7379/CBP-7379.pdf
China is 3.6% of UK exports. USA is 15% ish. EU is 43.7%.
Which is the more important?
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The thing is, you both totally missed the point of my post about Britain doing trade deals, as I wasn't thinking about a deal with the EU, I was thinking about the rest of the world and my point was that in my opinion at least,
But by not thinking about 43% of our current export market you're ignoring our largest single export market by a country mile (or 1.6Km if you prefer). Nose, face, off, cutting.
Britain will be able to go out into the wider world and thrash out simple trade deals that lower or eliminate tariffs and red tape. That's it! Just a deal about trade, nothing about contribution's to each others budgets or access to each others labour markets. :y
To trade with the EU (on a free trade agreement) we will have to contribute to it's budget and labour markets - Norway and Switzerland do. We probably wouldn't have to for the rest of the world countries (ex EU and USA), but these individually represent a tiny percentage of current markets.
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Especially, after the amount of money that the Chinese are ploughing into these isles.
Its always going to be in China's interest to sort thing out quickly as well as our own ;)
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7379/CBP-7379.pdf
China is 3.6% of UK exports. USA is 15% ish. EU is 43.7%.
Which is the more important?
Its just as important to China as it is to the USA or the EU.
You just sit down with them individually and start with whatever terms are current.
If both sides are happy and pleased with want they are getting then bobs your aunty and you scribble it down and get on with life :y
Things only get difficult when one or the other side wants it too which as said is in nobody's best interest :y
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Especially, after the amount of money that the Chinese are ploughing into these isles.
Its always going to be in China's interest to sort thing out quickly as well as our own ;)
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7379/CBP-7379.pdf
China is 3.6% of UK exports. USA is 15% ish. EU is 43.7%.
Which is the more important?
But at what cost? ???
It's widely accepted that in the event of Brexit as part of any sort of trade deal the UK will have to contribute to the EU budget and accept free movement of people. Why? ??? It's always smacked of the actions of a playground bully to me! ::)
It's also widely accepted that our trade with the EU is declining and we need to look further afield. We need to be more nimble and flexible which we can't as part of the EU. ::) It's about the long term future, not the past or even the present! ;)
In your earlier post, you mentioned Obama and his comment that the US will be in no hurry to do a deal with Britain.
Obama will be in the history books come November and it seems 50/50 who will be the next POTUS. Like him or Loath him Trump has already said that he will do a deal. If Hillary gets in, I agree there will be no quick deal, but guess what? That's no different to what we have at the moment! ::) So I can't really see a problem there and the situation might even improve! :y
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Do you really believe what you just said?
Two guys sit down and scribble something down on a serviette?
I think trade deals are a littttlllle bit more involved than what you are describing.
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Its just as important to China as it is to the USA or the EU.
Doubt it, and for the UK currently, EU > USA > China
You just sit down with them individually and start with whatever terms are current.
196 countries in the world at the last count. Post Brexit, the 'current' terms are 'no terms at all', so default WTO rules would apply.
If both sides are happy and pleased with want they are getting then bobs your aunty and you scribble it down and get on with life :y
Things only get difficult when one or the other side wants it too which as said is in nobody's best interest :y
I admire your optimism but there are always parties in every country opposed to something or other, or who want special treatment/protection. Can I suggest you watch a few episodes of Yes Minister/Prime Minster to see how things really work. Currently being repeated on Freeview/Yesterday and as true/funny/depressing now as it was in the 1980s.
http://yesterday.uktv.co.uk/shows/yes-prime-minister/
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Do you really believe what you just said?
Two guys sit down and scribble something down on a serviette?
I think trade deals are a littttlllle bit more involved than what you are describing.
It seems that way where the EU is involved! ::)
As I said earlier Australia and the US thrashed out a deal in 2 years, yet they've been negotiating TTIP for years maybe over a decade? :-\ and even then it looks unlikely to succeed..... ::)
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Of course, the E.U. will be only too happy to stop VW, BMW, Merc and Audi exporting all those "tawt chariots" to the UK overnight, because we have no trade deal, and the Germans will roll over and accept it. ;D
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I admire your optimism but there are always parties in every country opposed to something or other, or who want special treatment/protection.
Doing a trade deal between 2 countries has to be easier and simpler than doing a deal between one country and group of 28 countries, where each one of those 28 countries can veto the entire deal if there is something that dosn't suit them. ::)
I direct you again to TTIP. :P ;D
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Especially, after the amount of money that the Chinese are ploughing into these isles.
Its always going to be in China's interest to sort thing out quickly as well as our own ;)
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7379/CBP-7379.pdf
China is 3.6% of UK exports. USA is 15% ish. EU is 43.7%.
Which is the more important?
Its just as important to China as it is to the USA or the EU.
You just sit down with them individually and start with whatever terms are current.
If both sides are happy and pleased with want they are getting then bobs your aunty and you scribble it down and get on with life :y
Things only get difficult when one or the other side wants it too which as said is in nobody's best interest :y
I think there is something fundamentally wrong with assuming that we just pick up from the eu deal.
It aasumes that the foreign state or organisation is completely passive and just says 'yes sir' when boris or nigel knock on their door after brexit asking for a trade deal.
It ignores the possibility that they are independent entities who can turn around and say 'well our last agreement was with the eu, not with you. We are starting the negotiation at a different position'.
Brexiters treat this possibility with 'well we are british so we can ignore this'.
I find this argument very difficult to swallow.
The world owes us nothing as far as trade goes.
-
I suppose the million dollar question is why should other countries accept our terms? On what basis?
I suspect an independent UK's terms would be a lot less onerous and demanding than the EU's. ::)
All Britain will want to achieve from a trade deal is the ability to trade freely with that country, with minimal paperwork and low or zero tariffs. :y
I can't see Britain demanding contributions to our budget, the right of our people to live and work in that country and maybe even the regulatory burden would be less onerous. :y
In theory it should be quick and simple. Just 2 countries thrashing out a deal, which the US and Australia managed in 2 years. :)
How long have they been negotiating TTIP? ::)
You do reaise with that statement about the uk not demanding the right to live in the others country will affect 1.2 million britons? The number who live abroad in the eu?
What does the leave campaign propose for these people? Should they be repatriated? Or just leave them hung out to dry?
It is simply another bit of "leave" campaign "magic maths" .... you close all the borders to immigrants, and demand everything the UK wants from the surrounding countries (who all capitulate because we are so wonderful) and the world is great.... we want it, we get it being the mantra.
The reality is those other countries actually make their own demands, and refuse to take on all the ex-pats living in their countries .. so .. we stop 500,000 immigrants (hooray .. look at the pressure that is no longer on housing/hospitals etc) .. but then 1,200,000 ex-pats come home ..... and all want somewhere to live, and many are elderly and need more medical services .....
but why let the truth get in the way of a good headline ??
That won't happen due to the Vienna convention. I do expect their to be bad feeling initially towards expats e.g. here in Spain. However they will get over it especially as I am now 100% convinced that even with an Out vote the establishment will ensure that it NEVER happens. I also predict a spectacular from Remain in the next 9 days. That will save years of political and legal wrangling to get an out vote overturned. Vested interests have far too much at stake to allow an out vote.The very best we can hope for is the Eu realises it needs to change direction and adapt to sentiment (something it has been spectacularly unsuccessful at). We in Spain are likely to get a Left wing coalition government on the 26th June. Bit of a change from the Conservative EU toe licker we have had. When the Eu fines Spain in Uly for failing to get its debt down enough I am expecting a backlash .
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It's also widely accepted that our trade with the EU is declining and we need to look further afield. We need to be more nimble and flexible which we can't as part of the EU. ::) It's about the long term future, not the past or even the present! ;)
Yes it's declining, down from 50%+ to 43% today. But short and medium term, it's going to remain our largest export market by far. Taking actions which threaten our export market in order to hopefully increase our long term future is a huge gamble which will cause short and medium term pain to everyone.
In your earlier post, you mentioned Obama and his comment that the US will be in no hurry to do a deal with Britain.
Obama will be in the history books come November and it seems 50/50 who will be the next POTUS. Like him or Loath him Trump has already said that he will do a deal. If Hillary gets in, I agree there will be no quick deal, but guess what? That's no different to what we have at the moment! ::) So I can't really see a problem there and the situation might even improve! :y
Well there is no deal currently in place with the USA, so post Brexit there will be no change there. Trump can say what he likes, but the Senate and Congress actually have to approve US treaties so that's where the decision will actually be made. The current TTIP proposals look to be in trouble so are unlikely to be ratified any time soon either side of the Atlantic.
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I think there is something fundamentally wrong with assuming that we just pick up from the eu deal.
It aasumes that the foreign state or organisation is completely passive and just says 'yes sir' when boris or nigel knock on their door after brexit asking for a trade deal.
It ignores the possibility that they are independent entities who can turn around and say 'well our last agreement was with the eu, not with you. We are starting the negotiation at a different position'.
Brexiters treat this possibility with 'well we are british so we can ignore this'.
I find this argument very difficult to swallow.
The world owes us nothing as far as trade goes.
You're completely right that the world owes us nothing. :y
But you are also completely ignoring the fact that we are a large consumer market and it will be as much in those independent countries interests to engage with us as it is ours to engage with them. :y
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In your earlier post, you mentioned Obama and his comment that the US will be in no hurry to do a deal with Britain.
Obama will be in the history books come November and it seems 50/50 who will be the next POTUS. Like him or Loath him Trump has already said that he will do a deal. If Hillary gets in, I agree there will be no quick deal, but guess what? That's no different to what we have at the moment! ::) So I can't really see a problem there and the situation might even improve! :y
Well there is no deal currently in place with the USA, so post Brexit there will be no change there. Trump can say what he likes, but the Senate and Congress actually have to approve US treaties so that's where the decision will actually be made. The current TTIP proposals look to be in trouble so are unlikely to be ratified any time soon either side of the Atlantic.
At least we agree on something! ;D :y
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Especially, after the amount of money that the Chinese are ploughing into these isles.
Its always going to be in China's interest to sort thing out quickly as well as our own ;)
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7379/CBP-7379.pdf
China is 3.6% of UK exports. USA is 15% ish. EU is 43.7%.
Which is the more important?
Its just as important to China as it is to the USA or the EU.
You just sit down with them individually and start with whatever terms are current.
If both sides are happy and pleased with want they are getting then bobs your aunty and you scribble it down and get on with life :y
Things only get difficult when one or the other side wants it too which as said is in nobody's best interest :y
I think there is something fundamentally wrong with assuming that we just pick up from the eu deal.
It aasumes that the foreign state or organisation is completely passive and just says 'yes sir' when boris or nigel knock on their door after brexit asking for a trade deal.
It ignores the possibility that they are independent entities who can turn around and say 'well our last agreement was with the eu, not with you. We are starting the negotiation at a different position'.
Brexiters treat this possibility with 'well we are british so we can ignore this'.
I find this argument very difficult to swallow.
The world owes us nothing as far as trade goes.
100% correct ....
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I think there is something fundamentally wrong with assuming that we just pick up from the eu deal.
It aasumes that the foreign state or organisation is completely passive and just says 'yes sir' when boris or nigel knock on their door after brexit asking for a trade deal.
It ignores the possibility that they are independent entities who can turn around and say 'well our last agreement was with the eu, not with you. We are starting the negotiation at a different position'.
Brexiters treat this possibility with 'well we are british so we can ignore this'.
I find this argument very difficult to swallow.
The world owes us nothing as far as trade goes.
You're completely right that the world owes us nothing. :y
But you are also completely ignoring the fact that we are a large consumer market and it will be as much in those independent countries interests to engage with us as it is ours to engage with them. :y
But you are yet again making a huge assumption - that they will offer the same deal as they did before with the eu. What if they dont? You are simply ignoring this possibility, having convinced yourself that it cant possibly happen.
As they say on every financial product, 'past performance is no guarantee of future performance'.
As i said earler, you are assuming that the foreign state is completely passive. And ignoring that it is a new deal conducted by a new party at a different time.
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I think both sides overlook a fundamental issue with trade. All this talk of barriers going up, no trade, trade deals taking years . (all Threats and Fear statements by the way) overlooks a fundamental issue. Vested interests run trade and commerce. No way will they want things to stop working. The ships would stop running, mines would stop mining, smelters would stop smelting, docks would have nothing to load/unload, logistics would have nothing to deliver. etc etc. Europe and possibly the world would go into recession. Vested interests wouldn't have that. How do countries with no trade deal manage to trade?
No I can confidently predict cars will still be made and still astonishlingly be sold. Salad crops will still be grown and sold as will beef and French wine. Too much at stake to not do so.
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Doing a trade deal between 2 countries has to be easier and simpler than doing a deal between one country and group of 28 countries, where each one of those 28 countries can veto the entire deal if there is something that dosn't suit them. ::)
Probably - yes. But we (the UK) would then have to do a trade deal with the 27 other remaining EU countries to continue with free trade with our biggest export market, so as you say " each one of those 28 27 countries can veto the entire deal if there is something that dosn't suit them"
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Doing a trade deal between 2 countries has to be easier and simpler than doing a deal between one country and group of 28 countries, where each one of those 28 countries can veto the entire deal if there is something that dosn't suit them. ::)
Probably - yes. But we (the UK) would then have to do a trade deal with the 27 other remaining EU countries to continue with free trade with our biggest export market, so as you say " each one of those 28 27 countries can veto the entire deal if there is something that dosn't suit them"
Which is where we are at the moment looking out at the rest of the world.... :P
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I think both sides overlook a fundamental issue with trade. All this talk of barriers going up, no trade, trade deals taking years . (all Threats and Fear statements by the way) overlooks a fundamental issue. Vested interests run trade and commerce. No way will they want things to stop working. The ships would stop running, mines would stop mining, smelters would stop smelting, docks would have nothing to load/unload, logistics would have nothing to deliver. etc etc. Europe and possibly the world would go into recession. Vested interests wouldn't have that. How do countries with no trade deal manage to trade?
No I can confidently predict cars will still be made and still astonishlingly be sold. Salad crops will still be grown and sold as will beef and French wine. Too much at stake to not do so.
It's about "free trade deals" - not no trade deals.
If there is no "free trade deal", then when you export to a country you have to pay import tarrifs and duties to that country. These can be anything from 0% to 1000%. The effect is that it pushes up the price of your exported goods to the customers in the destination market. This has the effect that locally produced goods appear 'cheaper' to the customer, so they tend to stop buying your goods, and start buying from elsewhere.
It's easy to do with some goods - milk, cheese, basically anything farmed. However, if the end customer is intent on buying premium brands, like Scottish Whisky, or Pomerol wine, or BMW's or Somerset Cheddar Cheese and Scrumpy then they will just pay the new artificially increased price. Exports won't stop, they just become more expensive, which negatively affects quantities and company profits.
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I think there is something fundamentally wrong with assuming that we just pick up from the eu deal.
It aasumes that the foreign state or organisation is completely passive and just says 'yes sir' when boris or nigel knock on their door after brexit asking for a trade deal.
It ignores the possibility that they are independent entities who can turn around and say 'well our last agreement was with the eu, not with you. We are starting the negotiation at a different position'.
Brexiters treat this possibility with 'well we are british so we can ignore this'.
I find this argument very difficult to swallow.
The world owes us nothing as far as trade goes.
You're completely right that the world owes us nothing. :y
But you are also completely ignoring the fact that we are a large consumer market and it will be as much in those independent countries interests to engage with us as it is ours to engage with them. :y
But you are yet again making a huge assumption - that they will offer the same deal as they did before with the eu. What if they dont? You are simply ignoring this possibility, having convinced yourself that it cant possibly happen.
As they say on every financial product, 'past performance is no guarantee of future performance'.
As i said earler, you are assuming that the foreign state is completely passive. And ignoring that it is a new deal conducted by a new party at a different time.
And you are ignoring the possibility that an independent UK might be able to offer better trade terms, as our needs from a deal will be simpler than having to take account of the very different wants and need of 28 countries! :y
Also lets assume that there is no trade deal on the table with the EU and UK, do you think that Australian wine producers won't be delighted with the possibility of having a trade advantage over their French rivals, or Kenyan farmers who at present due to EU protectionist policies find it difficult to sell their produce here, gaining access to the UK market? ::)
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Doing a trade deal between 2 countries has to be easier and simpler than doing a deal between one country and group of 28 countries, where each one of those 28 countries can veto the entire deal if there is something that dosn't suit them. ::)
Probably - yes. But we (the UK) would then have to do a trade deal with the 27 other remaining EU countries to continue with free trade with our biggest export market, so as you say " each one of those 28 27 countries can veto the entire deal if there is something that dosn't suit them"
Which is where we are at the moment looking out at the rest of the world.... :P
Yes - With an agreement already in our pocket that we can trade freely with 27 other countries (plus Norway and Switzerland) that represent 8 out of 10 of our largest customers.
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I think both sides overlook a fundamental issue with trade. All this talk of barriers going up, no trade, trade deals taking years . (all Threats and Fear statements by the way) overlooks a fundamental issue. Vested interests run trade and commerce. No way will they want things to stop working. The ships would stop running, mines would stop mining, smelters would stop smelting, docks would have nothing to load/unload, logistics would have nothing to deliver. etc etc. Europe and possibly the world would go into recession. Vested interests wouldn't have that. How do countries with no trade deal manage to trade?
No I can confidently predict cars will still be made and still astonishlingly be sold. Salad crops will still be grown and sold as will beef and French wine. Too much at stake to not do so.
No one is suggesting that. What could happen is that a tariff is imposed. The foreign investor in the plant decides that the uk is a volatile place to do business with. He thought that he had one set of tariffs to deal with. Now he has 27 to deal with. And thats ignoring the rest of the world. Suddenly his business plan is not looking so good, and maybe france or spain may be a better bet. They dont have all this hassle with tearing up trade agreements.
And thats just the start...
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Doing a trade deal between 2 countries has to be easier and simpler than doing a deal between one country and group of 28 countries, where each one of those 28 countries can veto the entire deal if there is something that dosn't suit them. ::)
Probably - yes. But we (the UK) would then have to do a trade deal with the 27 other remaining EU countries to continue with free trade with our biggest export market, so as you say " each one of those 28 27 countries can veto the entire deal if there is something that dosn't suit them"
Which is where we are at the moment looking out at the rest of the world.... :P
Yes - With an agreement already in our pocket that we can trade freely with 27 other countries (plus Norway and Switzerland) that represent 8 out of 10 of our largest customers.
That's true enough, but there are costs and consequences, so the idea that we trade freely within the EU is a myth in my opinion.
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And you are ignoring the possibility that an independent UK might be able to offer better trade terms, as our needs from a deal will be simpler than having to take account of the very different wants and need of 28 countries! :y
Also lets assume that there is no trade deal on the table with the EU and UK, do you think that Australian wine producers won't be delighted with the possibility of having a trade advantage over their French rivals, or Kenyan farmers who at present due to EU protectionist policies find it difficult to sell their produce here, gaining access to the UK market? ::)
I'm sure the Australian wine producers and Kenyan farmers would be delighted if we offered them preferential trade deals. I'm not sure that the UK housewife will be amused if/when we impose import duties on the vast majority of the goods we import from the EU in "retaliation" to the EU imposing tarrifs on our exports to them. And be is no doubt - they would have to impose tarrifs until/unless a free trade deal with the EU could be agreed.
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I think both sides overlook a fundamental issue with trade. All this talk of barriers going up, no trade, trade deals taking years . (all Threats and Fear statements by the way) overlooks a fundamental issue. Vested interests run trade and commerce. No way will they want things to stop working. The ships would stop running, mines would stop mining, smelters would stop smelting, docks would have nothing to load/unload, logistics would have nothing to deliver. etc etc. Europe and possibly the world would go into recession. Vested interests wouldn't have that. How do countries with no trade deal manage to trade?
No I can confidently predict cars will still be made and still astonishlingly be sold. Salad crops will still be grown and sold as will beef and French wine. Too much at stake to not do so.
No one is suggesting that. What could happen is that a tariff is imposed. The foreign investor in the plant decides that the uk is a volatile place to do business with. He thought that he had one set of tariffs to deal with. Now he has 27 to deal with. And thats ignoring the rest of the world. Suddenly his business plan is not looking so good, and maybe france or spain may be a better bet. They dont have all this hassle with tearing up trade agreements.
And thats just the start...
But is it? No one has every satisfacorily answered my question on other forums regarding foreign owned companies employing locals. e.g. 240,000 mainly Brits employed in Britain by German owned companies. This is reciprocated around Europe. Trade just going to dry up or have daft tariffs slapped on? Don't think so.I still maintain it will get sorted quicker than you would imagine. Like I say too many vested interests.
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I suppose the million dollar question is why should other countries accept our terms? On what basis?
I suspect an independent UK's terms would be a lot less onerous and demanding than the EU's. ::)
All Britain will want to achieve from a trade deal is the ability to trade freely with that country, with minimal paperwork and low or zero tariffs. :y
I can't see Britain demanding contributions to our budget, the right of our people to live and work in that country and maybe even the regulatory burden would be less onerous. :y
In theory it should be quick and simple. Just 2 countries thrashing out a deal, which the US and Australia managed in 2 years. :)
How long have they been negotiating TTIP? ::)
You do reaise with that statement about the uk not demanding the right to live in the others country will affect 1.2 million britons? The number who live abroad in the eu?
What does the leave campaign propose for these people? Should they be repatriated? Or just leave them hung out to dry?
It is simply another bit of "leave" campaign "magic maths" .... you close all the borders to immigrants, and demand everything the UK wants from the surrounding countries (who all capitulate because we are so wonderful) and the world is great.... we want it, we get it being the mantra.
The reality is those other countries actually make their own demands, and refuse to take on all the ex-pats living in their countries .. so .. we stop 500,000 immigrants (hooray .. look at the pressure that is no longer on housing/hospitals etc) .. but then 1,200,000 ex-pats come home ..... and all want somewhere to live, and many are elderly and need more medical services .....
but why let the truth get in the way of a good headline ??
That won't happen due to the Vienna convention. I do expect their to be bad feeling initially towards expats e.g. here in Spain. However they will get over it especially as I am now 100% convinced that even with an Out vote the establishment will ensure that it NEVER happens. I also predict a spectacular from Remain in the next 9 days. That will save years of political and legal wrangling to get an out vote overturned. Vested interests have far too much at stake to allow an out vote.The very best we can hope for is the Eu realises it needs to change direction and adapt to sentiment (something it has been spectacularly unsuccessful at). We in Spain are likely to get a Left wing coalition government on the 26th June. Bit of a change from the Conservative EU toe licker we have had. When the Eu fines Spain in Uly for failing to get its debt down enough I am expecting a backlash .
At no point did I say they would be SENT home ... :) No treaty can stop folks DECIDING to return to UK. I have many friends, mostly ex-military, who have settled in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Cyprus, Greece etc ... and "survive" on savings/ pensions. With the extremely low interest rates their savings are no longer providing an income, and with the pound dropping against the euro (http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=1Y) down some 15% (ish) over the past year, and forecast to get worse, especially if Leave win. their UK (Sterling) pensions are being eroded as well. Add to that dramatic increases in medical insurance costs, rising cost of living in many places, and a lot of folks that I know are thinking seriously about returning to UK permanently. Some have gone as far as getting advice on selling their properties abroad before the shit fully hits the fan.
If enough ex-pats do the same it sort of erodes any benefit of blocking immigration, and thats before you decide you need MORE NHS staff to deal with the influx of elderly patients ..... and most NHS staff are immigrants ......
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Do people not think the fact that none of this is clear exposes the central flaw of brexit - that it simply hasnt been thought out.
Its like a shopping list of wishful thinking.
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Why have UKIP got the most MEPs because people generally have had enough of the EU whether its the majority we shall find out but you won't find any love for the EU or any interest.Who is your MEP??? When this is finished i'm sure there will be a change to our politics,it has too!!!
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No one is suggesting that. What could happen is that a tariff is imposed. The foreign investor in the plant decides that the uk is a volatile place to do business with. He thought that he had one set of tariffs to deal with. Now he has 27 to deal with. And thats ignoring the rest of the world. Suddenly his business plan is not looking so good, and maybe france or spain may be a better bet. They dont have all this hassle with tearing up trade agreements.
And thats just the start...
But is it? No one has every satisfacorily answered my question on other forums regarding foreign owned companies employing locals. e.g. 240,000 mainly Brits employed in Britain by German owned companies. This is reciprocated around Europe. Trade just going to dry up or have daft tariffs slapped on? Don't think so.I still maintain it will get sorted quicker than you would imagine. Like I say too many vested interests.
The sole purpose of company is to maximise profits for it's shareholders. Companies will do what makes the most economic sense to them - their duty is to their share holders, not their country or employees.
Trade won't just 'dry up' overnight - the companies can't react that quickly. If they can see a cheaper way of doing the same thing, then they will slowly migrate to the way that seems likely to maximise future profits. If that means closing factories in the UK and moving production elsewhere then that's what will happen. Probably not overnight, but when decisions on upgrades or new investment are required.
For example, there is a 10% tarrifs on imported cars into the EU. How long would Nissan/Honda tolerate 10% extra costs on exporting cars from Swindon/Middlesborough to the EU post Brexit? They couldn't move production over to EU land on 24th Jun. But when the current models range needs updating/replacing? Would they upgrade UK factories, or move production to new or pre-existing EU based sites?
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Do people not think the fact that none of this is clear exposes the central flaw of brexit - that it simply hasnt been thought out.
Its like a shopping list of wishful thinking.
If you need some clarity then try likening the situation to a marriage. You want change. None is forthcoming despite your partner saying things will change. You decide enough is enough and go for a divorce. Does life stop after divorce? Do you have a clear road path (e.g. a better partner to try)? No you do not. However it doesn't stop people successfully going through a divorce. I get fed up of all this but how will it work, what are we going to do. One thing we wouldn't do is sit back in pessimist mode and be spoonfed bumf by the EU.
PS if you thrive on worry then have a think about who will actually be running Britain assuming a) an Out vote and b) the vested interests don't get it converted into a remain scenario. Right wing Tories not particularly skilled either. Interested in the ordinary man and zero hour contracts? No just in feathering their own nests. that is the real area for concern.
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No one is suggesting that. What could happen is that a tariff is imposed. The foreign investor in the plant decides that the uk is a volatile place to do business with. He thought that he had one set of tariffs to deal with. Now he has 27 to deal with. And thats ignoring the rest of the world. Suddenly his business plan is not looking so good, and maybe france or spain may be a better bet. They dont have all this hassle with tearing up trade agreements.
And thats just the start...
But is it? No one has every satisfacorily answered my question on other forums regarding foreign owned companies employing locals. e.g. 240,000 mainly Brits employed in Britain by German owned companies. This is reciprocated around Europe. Trade just going to dry up or have daft tariffs slapped on? Don't think so.I still maintain it will get sorted quicker than you would imagine. Like I say too many vested interests.
The sole purpose of company is to maximise profits for it's shareholders. Companies will do what makes the most economic sense to them - their duty is to their share holders, not their country or employees.
Trade won't just 'dry up' overnight - the companies can't react that quickly. If they can see a cheaper way of doing the same thing, then they will slowly migrate to the way that seems likely to maximise future profits. If that means closing factories in the UK and moving production elsewhere then that's what will happen. Probably not overnight, but when decisions on upgrades or new investment are required.
For example, there is a 10% tarrifs on imported cars into the EU. How long would Nissan/Honda tolerate 10% extra costs on exporting cars from Swindon/Middlesborough to the EU post Brexit? They couldn't move production over to EU land on 24th Jun. But when the current models range needs updating/replacing? Would they upgrade UK factories, or move production to new or pre-existing EU based sites?
I believe that Nissan and Honda have said they wouldn't move their factories. Of course with more generous grants from the Eu to move yet more factories out of the Uk to other parts of Europe who knows. having said that the Eu is going to be really strapped for cash buying its army (why does a trading bloc need an army!) and also paying their estimate of up to 62 billion to stem the flow of migrants from North Africa.
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For example, there is a 10% tarrifs on imported cars into the EU. How long would Nissan/Honda tolerate 10% extra costs on exporting cars from Swindon/Middlesborough to the EU post Brexit? They couldn't move production over to EU land on 24th Jun. But when the current models range needs updating/replacing? Would they upgrade UK factories, or move production to new or pre-existing EU based sites?
Ford transferred production of the Transit van from Southampton to Turkey................ With an £80 million loan from the EU! ::)
They obviously decided that the cost of production in the EU was greater than the 10% tariff, so even if we stay there are no guarantees.....
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Problem is marriage involves two people. But sometimes people stick together for the kids.
In this case itis millions of people and generations to come.
Bit of an oversimplification i think to compare it to marriage.
I respect every ones opinions obviously there is a lot of strong feelings around europe.
I just wish they had thought all of this through before presenting it to the electorate.
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Why have UKIP got the most MEPs because people generally have had enough of the EU whether its the majority we shall find out but you won't find any love for the EU or any interest.Who is your MEP??? When this is finished i'm sure there will be a change to our politics,it has too!!!
In much the same way as the scots vote for the SNP. They had a referrendum for independence - the SNP's main aim - which resulted in a majority to remain in the UK. Yet at the following general election, the SNP won 50 of 53 Scottish seats.
IMHO - Most UK voters want the EU to change, and for those in Brussels/Strasbourg to 'but out'. The one way of expressing that view is to vote UKIP at Euro Elections. However, that doesn't mean UK voters support many/most UKIP policies - it's just seen as a way of putting a brake on the EU parliament.
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I believe that Nissan and Honda have said they wouldn't move their factories. Of course with more generous grants from the Eu to move yet more factories out of the Uk to other parts of Europe who knows.
The Nissan statement is here :
http://www.newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/Media/Media.aspx?mediaid=142871
Now you can spin things any way you want, but I struggle to see how that says anything close to "they wouldn't move their factories"
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They obviously decided that the cost of production in the EU was greater than the 10% tariff, so even if we stay there are no guarantees.....
Agree - no guarantees. But which outcome of the referendum makes such moves more likely?
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Problem is marriage involves two people. But sometimes people stick together for the kids.
In this case itis millions of people and generations to come.
Bit of an oversimplification i think to compare it to marriage.
I respect every ones opinions obviously there is a lot of strong feelings around europe.
I just wish they had thought all of this through before presenting it to the electorate.
Maybe They didn't think there was a need to think it through owing to them being sure of a remain win.. But then we never had the big masses of boats coming over when dave said we would have a referendum.
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Oh well if UKIP only do as well as the SNP then i'll settle for that!!
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Do people not think the fact that none of this is clear exposes the central flaw of brexit - that it simply hasn't been thought out.
Its like a shopping list of wishful thinking.
That is exactly what has persuaded me to settle on a reluctant and guarded Remain vote. All the Leave campaigners have published is a vague suggestion that it will be OK, with no idea of how that will be the case. Their continual implication that our immigration and economic problems will instantly improve is especially insulting.
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Do people not think the fact that none of this is clear exposes the central flaw of brexit - that it simply hasn't been thought out.
Its like a shopping list of wishful thinking.
That is exactly what has persuaded me to settle on a reluctant and guarded Remain vote. All the Leave campaigners have published is a vague suggestion that it will be OK, with no idea of how that will be the case. Their continual implication that our immigration and economic problems will instantly improve is especially insulting.
This country faces some very tough times ahead, this referendum could have been an opportunity to address globalisation, social equality etc etc
Instead i have nigel farage talking about foreign rapists coming to our shores.
Its been depressing and dismaying.
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I believe that Nissan and Honda have said they wouldn't move their factories. Of course with more generous grants from the Eu to move yet more factories out of the Uk to other parts of Europe who knows.
The Nissan statement is here :
http://www.newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/Media/Media.aspx?mediaid=142871
Now you can spin things any way you want, but I struggle to see how that says anything close to "they wouldn't move their factories"
Totally agree ...
""While we remain committed to our existing investment decisions, we will not speculate on the outcome nor what would happen in either scenario."
He added: "We obviously want the Nissan UK plant and engineering centre to remain as competitive as possible when compared with other global entities, and each future investment opportunity will be taken on a case by case basis, just as it is now.""
Certainly does not translate as "we are staying put" ..... and I don't speak owt but English .....
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Nissan recently announced that the have chosen the UK for production of its first partially driverless car. I doubt they would have made that decision if they considered Brexit a reason to move out of the UK. I'm pretty certain their chairman said earlier this year that they would stay in the UK even if we leave the EU. I cant find it at the moment, but if I do I will post it up.
The Chairman of Toyota has stated that they will remain in the UK if we leave the EU.
The owner of JCB has advised his staff that he considers the future of the UK to be best served by leaving the EU.
Robert Hargreaves, founder of Hargreaves Lansdown says we will do better if we leave.
There are similar people on both sides of the debate, but those on the remain side tend to be large global conglomerates who like the fact that one set of rules for dozens of countries saves them a lot of admin time & cost.
The rules are very restrictive, but they enjoy being part of the lobbying industry in Brussells, so they can influence laws, rules, directives etc. in their own favour.
Its a big boys club. A club for a powerful elite to enable them to rule over us with almost no accountability, the dream scenario for most politicians.
It isn't much good for ordinary people, and it treats the notion of separate, sovereign , democratic nations with complete disdain
The future outside of it cannot be predicted with absolute certainty. Nothing in the future can, including the future if we stay in.
To assume to vote to stay in will be a vote for the status quo would be staggeringly naïve in my opinion. Look at the history of the EU and then decide what its future course is likely to be.
Look at the history of the UK and decide if its likely to do ok if it returns to democratic self governance, and returns to being a nation which trades with the whole world on mutually beneficial terms.
Have confidence in your own country. The only reason not to is fear. To me, the fear of remaining is much greater than the fear of leaving.
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Problem is marriage involves two people. But sometimes people stick together for the kids.
In this case itis millions of people and generations to come.
Bit of an oversimplification i think to compare it to marriage.
I respect every ones opinions obviously there is a lot of strong feelings around europe.
I just wish they had thought all of this through before presenting it to the electorate.
Spot on and with your later comments about globalisation andf so on.
I wish the Eu had adapted to the obvious wishes of many people. They didn't and in my view have little intention of doing so. At the moment we have Blue on Blue power struggle, we have a weak UK PM who in order to ensure geting back into power "gave" the UK a referendum. We have global interests baying that a Brexit would be bad (for them). We have a Eurozone still teetering on the edge. The timing of the referendum is atrocious however it is the only chance most of us on this forum will have to vote on the subject. I don't want my grandchildren to be ruled by the federal EU with its own army making grand decisions but not thinking them through (handling of migrants to Europe, Eurozone crisis and so on). The trading bloc idea was sound.
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Problem is marriage involves two people. But sometimes people stick together for the kids.
In this case itis millions of people and generations to come.
Bit of an oversimplification i think to compare it to marriage.
I respect every ones opinions obviously there is a lot of strong feelings around europe.
I just wish they had thought all of this through before presenting it to the electorate.
I'm pretty sure that David Cameron bitterly regrets presenting it to the electorate. It may well cost him his job.
.
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Back to nissan... Surely one of the reasons they went to sunderland was eu financial help for deprived areas? Same as airbus wings being built in wales?
Sone of these arguments seem to be highly selective with the facts.
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It may cost him his job but he will soon get a proper job with a decent rate of pay. He always said this was his last term. Secretly I dare say he will be glad to go.
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Nissan uk boss on eu. In his own words...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24859486 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24859486)
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Nissan recently announced that the have chosen the UK for production of its first partially driverless car. I doubt they would have made that decision if they considered Brexit a reason to move out of the UK. I'm pretty certain their chairman said earlier this year that they would stay in the UK even if we leave the EU. I cant find it at the moment, but if I do I will post it up.
You won't find it coz he didn't say it.
The Chairman of Toyota has stated that they will remain in the UK if we leave the EU.
The actual Toyota statement :
http://blog.toyota.co.uk/statement-from-toyota-in-regards-to-the-uk-eu-referendum-june-23rd-2016
Again - I can't see anywhere that it says "they won't be leaving"
Robert Hargreaves, founder of Hargreaves Lansdown says we will do better if we leave.
Hargreaves Lansdown are a slick operation, but so overpriced anyone with them should have left several years ago whilst you could still leave for free. Now you're going to have to pay to leave. A good business model to extract money from the unsuspecting public, but not one I'd be taking advice from. And he funds Bristol City FC.
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I'm pretty sure that David Cameron bitterly regrets presenting it to the electorate. It may well cost him his job.
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Not sure about that. If he'd have lost the last election he'd probably be have been ousted shortly afterwards. As it is, he's already said he'll stand down as leader before the next election (though continue as an MP?)
I think he thought that the most likely way to remain in power after the 2015 election was as a result of a hung parliament in a coalition. If that included the Lib-Dems then they wouldn't agree to a referendum, so he could weasel out of one the same way he did after the 2010 election. And if they lost the 2015 election, then it didn't matter promising a referendum since Labour weren't offering one.
What he never though was that the Tories would outright win the election, thus he had to allow a referendum in order to keep the party together. Basically the lesser of 3 evils. If he comes away with a Remain vote, then he'll have got away with it. If it's a Leave vote, then he can continue till the next election as PM before standing down and handing over to the new guy to sort the mess out.
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If you need some clarity then try likening the situation to a marriage. You want change. None is forthcoming despite your partner saying things will change. You decide enough is enough and go for a divorce. Does life stop after divorce? Do you have a clear road path (e.g. a better partner to try)? No you do not. However it doesn't stop people successfully going through a divorce. I get fed up of all this but how will it work, what are we going to do. One thing we wouldn't do is sit back in pessimist mode and be spoonfed bumf by the EU.
About the best analogy I've seen. There may be a detailed roadmap drawn up between the government, the EU and other players as to how a Brexit would happen. There may not be. We the plebs don't have it in front of us because the only parties who could draw it up have a vested interest in the status quo remaining. Their cards are therefore being held close to their chest while they spin the doom and gloom BS. ::)
Only if the public directs our government to leave the EU will they play their hand.
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Nissan uk boss on eu. In his own words...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24859486 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24859486)
"This is not the first time that Mr Ghosn has linked Nissan's UK investment to the country's role within the EU.
In October 2002, he told the BBC News website that the Sunderland plant's future would depend on whether the UK adopted the euro.
However, the UK has continued to use the pound and Nissan is still making cars in Sunderland."
Copied from the BBC article you linked.
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Back to nissan... Surely one of the reasons they went to sunderland was eu financial help for deprived areas? Same as airbus wings being built in wales?
Sone of these arguments seem to be highly selective with the facts.
The EU doesn't have any money, other than that which it takes in taxes from member states. Therefore, the "EU aid" for Nissan Sunderland, is simply them returning some of the money which this country sent to the EU, but the EU is deciding how it sends it back.
Our post Brexit Govt can of course choose to aid Nissan in exactly the same way. It would just be more direct.
Toyota Chairman.
https://next.ft.com/content/1afaf414-b81f-11e5-b151-8e15c9a029fb
Edit. Above link wont work, but if you google, Toyota chairman says Toyota wont leave UK if we brexit, the FT article will appear.
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Back to nissan... Surely one of the reasons they went to sunderland was eu financial help for deprived areas? Same as airbus wings being built in wales?
Sone of these arguments seem to be highly selective with the facts.
The EU doesn't have any money, other than that which it takes in taxes from member states. Therefore, the "EU aid" for Nissan Sunderland, is simply them returning some of the money which this country sent to the EU, but the EU is deciding how it sends it back.
Our post Brexit Govt can of course choose to aid Nissan in exactly the same way. It would just be more direct.
More importantly they will be able to as they will not be constrained by EU law. :y
Whether they chose to do so is another matter however! ::) ;D
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I'm not old enough to remember but i'm sure when we voted in nobody mentioned its going to cost most of the people in the fishing industry their jobs and rather a lot of jobs at that???
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Staying in won't save your job that's for sure!!!
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Toyota Chairman.
https://next.ft.com/content/1afaf414-b81f-11e5-b151-8e15c9a029fb
Edit. Above link wont work, but if you google, Toyota chairman says Toyota wont leave UK if we brexit, the FT article will appear.
That report was posted in several papers on January 11, 2016. Toyota deny ever saying anything resembling that, and posted the following blog on Feb 23rd 2016 :
http://blog.toyota.co.uk/statement-from-toyota-in-regards-to-the-uk-eu-referendum-june-23rd-2016
So either the pro Brexit papers made it all up, or Toyota have changed their mind.
From the official posts on the Nissan and Toyota websites, it's fairly clear to me what they think.
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I'm not old enough to remember but i'm sure when we voted in nobody mentioned its going to cost most of the people in the fishing industry their jobs and rather a lot of jobs at that???
If the fishing industry had continued the way they were they would have been out of business 10 years ago, and there would be no fish left in the North Sea. The EU has actually enabled them to continue to work, albeit in a reduced manner, and has preserved several species of fish that otherwise would be extinct or nearly so. Fishermen have VERY selective memories and distribution of facts ... bit like the rest of the leave campaign.
You can't fish if you've killed all the fish
You can't export if the country taking the goods puts a large tariff on those goods
You can't demand every country in the world does what you want, simply because you demand it
You can't stop immigration and expand the NHS at the same time as most NHS workers are immigrants
You can't stop immigration and have cheap agriculture as most agricultural workers are immigrants
You can't take the money we pay to be in the EU and spend it 5 times over on 5 different pet projects
You can't hope things happen your way simply because you wish it... there's a real world out there .....
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I'm not old enough to remember but i'm sure when we voted in nobody mentioned its going to cost most of the people in the fishing industry their jobs and rather a lot of jobs at that???
If the fishing industry had continued the way they were they would have been out of business 10 years ago, and there would be no fish left in the North Sea. The EU has actually enabled them to continue to work, albeit in a reduced manner, and has preserved several species of fish that otherwise would be extinct or nearly so. Fishermen have VERY selective memories and distribution of facts ... bit like the rest of the leave campaign.
You can't fish if you've killed all the fish
You can't export if the country taking the goods puts a large tariff on those goods
You can't demand every country in the world does what you want, simply because you demand it
You can't stop immigration and expand the NHS at the same time as most NHS workers are immigrants
You can't stop immigration and have cheap agriculture as most agricultural workers are immigrants
You can't take the money we pay to be in the EU and spend it 5 times over on 5 different pet projects
You can't hope things happen your way simply because you wish it... there's a real world out there .....
There's a lot of assumptions in that post Entwood.
We'll never know what might have happened to the British fishing industry had we not joined the EU.
Why do you assume that the EU or other countries are going to slap large tariffs on our goods? There are WTO rules on that.
Who's demanding anything? We can say what we would like to happen but I can't see an independent UK government adopting gunboat diplomacy!
Nobody is talking about stopping immigration.
Nobody is talking about stopping immigration.
It's just examples of what the money could be spent on.
As you often say.... Lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story! ;)
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18 pages on I'm none the wiser on which way to vote myself, but I have a crystal clear view of which way several members here are going to vote and I'm very sure none will be persuaded of the opposing view.. ;D
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18 pages on I'm none the wiser on which way to vote myself, but I have a crystal clear view of which way several members here are going to vote and I'm very sure none will be persuaded of the opposing view.. ;D
That about hits the nail fair and square.
I'm still for convincing, as my heart says one thing, and my head says the opposite.
But virtually all of whats been posted in this thread is complete 'dangle berries'. Much like whats being said by Westminster and beyond.
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'dangle berries' is all that's available, I'm afraid. 'dangle berries' from the leave camp because they themselves have no idea what would happen, and 'dangle berries' from the remain camp because they've gone too far with the scare tactics and are not going to backtrack now.
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18 pages on I'm none the wiser on which way to vote myself, but I have a crystal clear view of which way several members here are going to vote and I'm very sure none will be persuaded of the opposing view.. ;D
That about hits the nail fair and square.
I'm still for convincing, as my heart says one thing, and my head says the opposite.
But virtually all of whats been posted in this thread is complete 'dangle berries'. Much like whats being said by Westminster and beyond.
That's politics.
But it could be worse, we could be discussing religion ;D
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18 pages on I'm none the wiser on which way to vote myself, but I have a crystal clear view of which way several members here are going to vote and I'm very sure none will be persuaded of the opposing view.. ;D
That about hits the nail fair and square.
I'm still for convincing, as my heart says one thing, and my head says the opposite.
But virtually all of whats been posted in this thread is complete 'dangle berries'. Much like whats being said by Westminster and beyond.
I did a "quiz" thing earlier that was meant to tell me where I sat on the spectrum ([edit] voting spectrum, not autism spectrum ;D ) - it actually gives arguments for and against behind each point to help you make up your mind - and at the end of that? I was more or less right in the middle, 50/50 either way. So that helped.
Article: https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/blog/2/steve-hilton-eu-referendum-bombshell-crowdpac-in-or-out-test
The "quiz": https://www.crowdpac.co.uk/eu-referendum-in-or-out
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73% OUT for me :y :y
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18 pages on I'm none the wiser on which way to vote myself, but I have a crystal clear view of which way several members here are going to vote and I'm very sure none will be persuaded of the opposing view.. ;D
That about hits the nail fair and square.
I'm still for convincing, as my heart says one thing, and my head says the opposite.
But virtually all of whats been posted in this thread is complete 'dangle berries'. Much like whats being said by Westminster and beyond.
That's my biggest issue with the whole way the referendum has been discussed. This end of the world rhetoric has only served to reaffirm the decisions of those whose minds were already made up. Whilst creating deep divided between the two camps as both can (legitimately) say if the other "you'd have to be oppsing crackers to believe the nonsense your side is spouting".
Ironically, I think if either side had made a reasoned honest bid for the middle ground, they'd have won the argument by winning the undecideds.
It pains me beyond expression to say this but the only one whose done that so far is Corbyn. And he's been slammed for not being passionate (read: dishonest) about the issue
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73% OUT for me :y :y
65% out.
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73% OUT for me :y :y
65% out.
Closet's emptying fast. :P
We'll soon have enough for an acapella rendition of I am what I am! ;D
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73% OUT for me :y :y
65% out.
Closet's emptying fast. :P
We'll soon have enough for an acapella rendition of I am what I am! ;D
Blimey, that's a posh word ;D Good though :y
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73% OUT for me :y :y
65% out.
Closet's emptying fast. :P
We'll soon have enough for an acapella rendition of I am what I am! ;D
Ok...35% in. ;D
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96 % out. I'm not as Eurosceptic as I thought. :D ;D
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Interesting and long report by Professor David Blake City University London on why the projections by the treasury, IMF, OECD and WHO are dangerous discredited deception a massive misuse of statistics modeling based on the Gravity model. The Treasury report has been widely used by Dodgy Dave, Gideon and the Remain case of the economic meltdown of leaving. All of them have the same results from their modelling as they have used the same assumptions and models to provide a common geopolitical deception by the establishment.
Professor David Blake has 40 years of economic modelling including inventing The Gravity Model. It is not necessary to read or understand the short mathematical description of the VED model to understand that the results are purely the result of arbitrary assumptions made by the treasury. Garbage in to get the right political result out and to the use these incorrect results in an incorrect arbitrary way to give the 'right' scare story.
The problem in politics of trying to scare all the people all of the time is that some like Prof Dave Blake are too smart to be fooled and even worse they can write a clear factual response. Unlike the Treasury all that Prof David Blake can tell us is that we will all be better off in 2030 and he gives a range. He said a fundamental mistake of the Treasury report is that it only models the Remain case with the Gravity model where it should also include the the ROW Gravity Leave model, but that would probably kill the scare story as the economic results are better (This is the case with Professor Patrick Minford's model who is one of the UK's leading macroeconomic modelling experts). His section on the dangers of remaining and the Euro and what any second year student learns about the conditions for a successful currency union is interesting, where the Euro fails on most counts and all it offers at best is a long grim future for the Southern peripheral nations.
http://www.cass.city.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/320758/BlakeReviewsTreasuryModels.pdf (http://www.cass.city.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/320758/BlakeReviewsTreasuryModels.pdf)
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quiz says I'm 51% out. So that didn't really help ;D
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Trouble with that questionnaire is there's a lot of 'agree slightly' and the like. You'd have to be pretty hard-line to go with all the 'totally disagree/agree'.
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Trouble with that questionnaire is there's a lot of 'agree slightly' and the like. You'd have to be pretty hard-line to go with all the 'totally disagree/agree'.
I did with a few questions.....and got 63% out.....which is probably be the way I vote...
Even if it means a few years of 'recession' , if the outcome is a better UK, then maybe it will be worth it .......
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Well, at last I see a possibly valid reason to "Remain". . . . "threat to our curry restaurants" ::)
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/immigration-curbs-a-threat-to-thriving-curry-restaurants-a3272066.html
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Vote OUT! :y
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Well, at last I see a possibly valid reason to "Remain". . . . "threat to our curry restaurants" ::)
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/immigration-curbs-a-threat-to-thriving-curry-restaurants-a3272066.html
They really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now. ::)
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Well, at last I see a possibly valid reason to "Remain". . . . "threat to our curry restaurants" ::)
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/immigration-curbs-a-threat-to-thriving-curry-restaurants-a3272066.html
You ask any curry house owner up here and he will tell you that they are struggling like break to bring in proper qualified curry chefs across from India and Bangladesh to fill the gaps after the first generation chefs who came here retire. With the British born offspring of these immigrants not wanting to follow into the family business, and wanting to branch out into other skills, you will find that some decent family businesses are closing rather then employ somebody who hasn't a clue about Asian cooking :(
So yes, more shite from the Vote surrender your sovereignty Remain camp >:( >:(
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So yes, more shite from the Vote surrender your sovereignty Remain camp >:( >:(
What's it got to do with either Leave or Remain campaigns? Non EU immigration policy is UK government controlled. Or more like un-controlled given that there are still more non-EU nationals coming here than EU nationals.
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So yes, more shite from the Vote surrender your sovereignty Remain camp >:( >:(
What's it got to do with either Leave or Remain campaigns? Non EU immigration policy is UK government controlled. Or more like un-controlled given that there are still more non-EU nationals coming here than EU nationals.
For me, the immigration side is just a part of the problem with the EU.
They want a unified state of Europe, I want a trade agreement with them. Not have them sticking there noses into British laws and to decide who come to my country, NOT them :)
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For me, the immigration side is just a part of the problem with the EU.
They want a unified state of Europe, I want a trade agreement with them. Not have them sticking there noses into British laws and to decide who come to my country, NOT them :)
I understand that - but this story appears to be about people from the Indian sub continent (specifically Curry Chefs) not being able to come here. That is completely within the UK govt's control and nothing to do with the EU, so the story has nothing to do with either Leave or Remain campaigns.
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Illustrates the muddle of leave. They really want less immigration. Eu is just in the way of that, hence the lack of interest in economic arguments. Its single issue politics.
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That quiz was a good post.
73% out for me.
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Illustrates the muddle of leave. They really want less immigration. Eu is just in the way of that, hence the lack of interest in economic arguments. Its single issue politics.
Technically any immigrant to the EU, illegal or otherwise should be processed at point of entry, ie Greece or Italy.
It's easier for these countries to issue local citizenship documentation than to deport... and because those initial points of entry have limited work and no welfare budget, the newly endowed arrivals move on... open borders and unrestricted movement of migrant workers within the EU means these people can legitimately come here and start claiming.
And you only have to look at the numbers of people in the Calais area waiting for a chance to get here, having bypassed/ignored France and Germany on the way (both of which have welfare systems at least as supportive as ours) to see that this is a real issue, and one that can only be tackled by being able to regulate our borders more effectively. The only reason the effects are currently not being fully felt across the country is a natural barrier commonly known as The English Channel.
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This is just 2 + 2 = 5
#1:
It's easier for these countries to issue local citizenship documentation than to deport... and because those initial points of entry have limited work and no welfare budget, the newly endowed arrivals move on... open borders and unrestricted movement of migrant workers within the EU means these people can legitimately come here and start claiming.
#2
And you only have to look at the numbers of people in the Calais area waiting for a chance to get here, having bypassed/ignored France and Germany on the way (both of which have welfare systems at least as supportive as ours) to see that this is a real issue, and one that can only be tackled by being able to regulate our borders more effectively. The only reason the effects are currently not being fully felt across the country is a natural barrier commonly known as The English Channel.
If #1 were true #2 wouldn't occur. All those people at Calais, and others entering via the Med/Turkey would just go straight to the country that is doling out EU citizenship willy-nilly, get their EU passport, and then cross without hindrance into the UK. Yet we know #2 does occur; ergo #1 doesn't.
So exactly how is Brexiting going to do anything to stop #2?
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The people in '#2' will eventually be dispersed one way or the other. If we remain in, then we, along with a handful of other EU countries that have the means to support them, will be forced to accept them.
Once this happens they will fall into category '#1' by default and the majority will then come here anyway, a) because they will then be able to unrestricted, and b) because here is where they always wanted to be, hence heading straight for the Calais area.
By exiting we will be able to manage this influx on our terms.
Immigration control isn't the be all and end all for voting out, but it is a consideration. Economically, the greater EU cannot sustain continued mass migration from the Middle East/Africa... wages and conditions have been depressed for long enough as it is as a direct result of a wave of cheap labour flooding across western Europe over the last 10-12 years.
Leaving isn't an easy option, far from it, but it is the only long-term choice.
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Trouble with that questionnaire is there's a lot of 'agree slightly' and the like. You'd have to be pretty hard-line to go with all the 'totally disagree/agree'.
I did with a few questions.....and got 63% out.....which is probably be the way I vote...
Even if it means a few years of 'recession' , if the outcome is a better UK, then maybe it will be worth it .......
Very unlikely, beyond remain project fear as we will go EEA/EFTA route. BOP (balance of payments) is positive with ROW (rest of world) and growing fast but negative to the extent of -3% of GDP with EU where Germany / France and their EU Hegemony (think CAF) are determined it will prevail at our expense which is why Leave must prevail for you, your children and grand children for a better future. Most trade agreements have a continuity clause, which means nothing changes unless we want it to.
Fundamental problems with the Euro and its black holes are killing European growth and wealth. Since 1988 EU has lost % of world trade at 2x USA, ask your MP/MEP why 50%+ unemployed in some southern European countries is acceptable with a massive 25% depression and drop in GDP. This IMO is an EU commission disaster or maybe in their viw they are acting like a Marquis de Sade EU poster boy? The classic economic solution is to default and devalue (aka Iceland) but this is not allowed for the political EU Euro project. Much better to have destitute Greeks than a single Euro be threatened for an EU commissioners and their generous gravy train.
My attitude is I want the best for the UK and its citizens as I always want the best for everybody. I deliberately don't do political dogma and if you look back through my posts where I'm right wing I support 'left wing' campaigns on this basis for justice and transparency like the recent one on secrecy by IDS. With a strong engineering and science background, the pragmatic approach is what works is what works for the betterment of mankind. The EU IMO fails this test which is why I support Leave.
Finally, the question and answer boils down to who governs us? An appointed Brussels dictatorship which is currently fairly benign (by global standards!) but still an appointed dictatorship who might appoint Orban, Le Pen or a Hitler or Stalin in the future with the rise of the extreme left and right as a result of the EUs democratic deficit. There are no democratic checks or balances to stop this happening! Personally, I would rather rely on our 800 years of evolving democracy and since the 16th century stability (after civil war) where many countries have not be so fortunate so we are still in the very privileged position of being the 5th biggest economy in the world.
Your vote, your choice on the 23rd June, use it wisely.
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I was wondering when hitler would get brought up.
Bit late in the day, but leave never dissapoints.
Btw in france, spain germany they have strong unions and employment legislation unlike here so wages being undercut by migrants is perhaps wishful thinking on leaves part.
But why let reality get in your way?
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I was wondering when hitler would get brought up.
Bit late in the day, but leave never dissapoints.
Btw in france, spain germany they have strong unions and employment legislation unlike here so wages being undercut by migrants is perhaps wishful thinking on leaves part.
But why let reality get in your way?
... But I see that you don't have an issue in it being called a dictatorship, so we're getting somewhere. ;)
This is the problem I have with the EU. As Rods2 said, it's a benign dictatorship. It's carefully constructed to have a veneer of "democracy" on the outside whilst those at the core look after their vested interests free from accountability.
An exit won't solve any perceived problems with immigration, nor will it be the end of the world for our foreign trade. On a practical level things will probably continue much as they are once the dust has settled.
I'm increasingly of the opinion that the march of the EU must be stopped, however.
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I was wondering when hitler would get brought up.
Bit late in the day, but leave never dissapoints.
Btw in france, spain germany they have strong unions and employment legislation unlike here so wages being undercut by migrants is perhaps wishful thinking on leaves part.[/highlights]
But why let reality get in your way?
Au contraire, Rodney, au contraire.
By example, aircraft cleaners here get paid about £1 per hour more now than they did 12 years ago. They are split approximately 50% British, 23% Eastern European, 23% Portuguese (predominantly Madeiran) and the remainder ROW.
Prior to 2004, it was nearer 85% British, 5% EU, (Spanish/Portuguese/French),10% ROW.
Then they were paid overtime rates of between 50 and 75% and received sick pay. Now it's flat rate, statutory and the Working Time Directive is being applied more and more thoroughly.
Sure, that is only one example from one industry, but talking around, it seems to be a common situation... ie the more the EU expands, the less wages and conditions keep pace even with inflation...
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Au contraire, Rodney, au contraire.
By example, aircraft cleaners here get paid about £1 per hour more now than they did 12 years ago. They are split approximately 50% British, 23% Eastern European, 23% Portuguese (predominantly Madeiran) and the remainder ROW.
Prior to 2004, it was nearer 85% British, 5% EU, (Spanish/Portuguese/French),10% ROW.
Then they were paid overtime rates of between 50 and 75% and received sick pay. Now it's flat rate, statutory and the Working Time Directive is being applied more and more thoroughly.
Sure, that is only one example from one industry, but talking around, it seems to be a common situation... ie the more the EU expands, the less wages and conditions keep pace even with inflation...
Of course importing labour tends to depress wages - and that effect tends to be more concentrated in the lower skilled jobs. But, Why do you expect Brexit to change that for the better?
The Brexiteers seem undecided on what route they would take to retain free trade with the EU, but either EFTA or EEA membership seem the most likely routes. Both of these demand the free movement of people, so the flow of EU nationals into the UK 'depressing wages' is unlikely to change.
In order to continue flying to EU destinations on anything like the scale we do now, we are also going to have to apply to join the ECAA since our membership is currently by virtue of our EU membership. These negotiations involve coming to an agreement with the EU, and typically take a few years to be ratified.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Common_Aviation_Area
If we don't join the ECAA then British airlines will be in the same boat as Qantas/AA/UAL etc when trying to agree flights and routes into the EU. It'd be the end for Ryanair and Easyjet in the UK, and many/most of the aircraft cleaners jobs.
The chances of the UK leaving the EU, not allowing free movement of EU nationals, and continuing to fly the same number of flights per day into the EU, are miniscule. So careful what you wish for.
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That sounds dangerously reasoned and thought through, using verifiable facts and as such has no part of the brexit debate.
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That sounds dangerously reasoned and thought through, using verifiable facts and as such has no part of the brexit debate. debacle
Fixed that for you
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I've got my fingers in my ears now, just don't want to hear any more.
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I've got my fingers in my ears now, just don't want to hear any more.
Spot on !! :y ;D
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I've got my fingers in my ears now, just don't want to hear any more.
If that's so, how are you navigating the internet?
No, don't answer that, none of the possibilities are suitable for civilised society :o
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Neither of the airlines you mention are actually cleaned during the flying day, and one of them isn't even based in the UK... the other one is bankrolled by Emirates :-X
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For all voters you should watch the Daily Politics program today,they had a politician from Norway talking about the Norwegian campaign for EU membership.The Inners used the exact same argument that the remainers are using,£3000 worst off,pensions down,economic collapse,etc etc.You are being conned if you vote for in just open your eyes and watch this Norwegian lady,the Norwegians showed heart and brain and twice have voted not to join and Switzerland just withdrew its application!!!!!!!
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If you haven't read it, Freddy Forsyth puts the case for leaving very succinctly ;
http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/frederick-forsyth/651377/Brexit-referendum-EU-never-meant-to-be-democracy-says-Frederick-Forsyth
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What a great closing speech by Blondie . :y But ovarall it seemed to be a poor performance by the leave side i thought